Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

[theFool]

Composted dung is used to boost plant growth. One could say that the nurturing secret fire could be responsile for that growth. But our science has found that nitrate salts alone, even if composed artificially, can do the same.

[horticult]

Yeahh, I almost hate this oak parable. Maybe Flamel started with it. Pernety says that the oak is the furnace.

"condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 ) .

Is there any difference between the lamb and the ram?
Would you mention the second author?

Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./

[pierre]

Fool: the universal spirit is responsible for life in all realms of nature and is embodied in all substances, including nitrates. ¿What is the key, then? Get that spirit in the purest form possible; not specified to any kingdom, yet. When more pure is obtained the spirit, more philosophical the alchemical path. In other words, less cumbersome and chemistry.

And any artificial substance, is dead.

horticult: I think lamb and the ram does not mean the same thing; The ram is the symbol of a substance X in the alchemical process, which leads the harmony between two extremes, such as water and fire. And the lamb states the subject in which the universal spirit is concentrated. Maybe someone does not agree with my thinking and can offer a fuller explanation.


"condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 ) .

That part of the Bible mark the ratio between the lamb and the universal spirit, but IMO, just means substances by analogy. ¿What do you think?

Hortucult, please, hate not part of the oak, that's when he speaks most clearly ...

Would you mention the second author?

Mmmm..., I guess not...

Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./

Please, do not miss prospect, Focus on alchemy.

[horticult]

I wanted only to check my own statement and wow! :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin

[pierre]

No; Lanolin is not the subject I want to display. The secret substance does not necessarily come from the wool; it`s just an analogy by way of association. As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".

¿What relationship is there between the lanolin and oak...?

Remember that even discard the rocks and metals as producers of the secret matter, not because it ceases to be of mineral origin...; which is to say much in few words.

The metals and minerals come from the same root: from this subtle and tender secret magnet...

The universal spirit is embodied by attraction in this magnet and it forms the sulfur secret. Then, for reasons of fate, this substance is evolving into the realm of metals, so that could be directed toward the plant kingdom.

I do not think the lanolin acts as philosophical magnet.

[BeautifulEvil]

As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".

Pierre, are you familiar with the "Language of the Birds?" That would explain a lot!

[pierre]

I am not fully knowledgeable about the lenguage of the birds, but I endeavor to learn more and more. Many things can be said without giving to understand that are saying. It is not easy to find the relationship between the meaning and content of the words of the secret language.

Without insight into the principles of the relationship between the secret art, mythology, substances and metaphors, it is impossible to break the bargain that covers the meaning of words. It`s the study of a lifetime...

It is not sufficient to consider phonetics of the word studied, but the relationship between the reactions of the materials with each other, and the correspondence they have with the mythological characters they represent.

Etc...

[solomon levi]

Greetings Pierre,
Is it necessary to know french to comprehend Fulcanelli's clues?

Oak - chene
Fleece - toison, flocon
lamb - agneau

agneau sounds/looks like fire-water - shamayim.

Latin:
lamb - agnus
oak - quercus
fleece - vellus

Greek:
lamb - agnos
oak - drus
fleece - malli

malli is interesting because it is like apple which is like gall, oak gall - galle du chene


Is this useful at all or unnecessary?

[pierre]

Hi, Salomon Levi; Know the author's original language is important, but Fulcanelli used very much Greek and Latin.

The translation of the words that you show us, refers to what igneous. That is fine. Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)

[horticult]

I am not saying that lanolin is for alch. work; by the old creek-fleece method I want to show a "strange" analogy between worlds.

[BeautifulEvil]

Translations for lamb:

Latin: agnus
Greek: agnos
French: agneau
Italian: agnello
Old Church Slavonic: агнѧ (agnę), агньць (agnĭcĭ)
Croatian: janje
Slovene: jagnje
Polish: jagnię

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Latin ignis:

From Proto-Indo-European *h₁ngʷni-. Cognate with Sanskrit अग्नि (agní), Hittite (a-ak-ni-iš), Old Church Slavonic огнь (ognĭ), Old Prussian ugnis.

1. fire

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Italian igneo:

igneo m (f ignea, m plural ignei, f plural ignee)

1. flaming, fervid
2. igneous

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Sanskrit aअग्नि (Agní):

1. fire, sacrificial fire (of three kinds, गार्हपत्य (gārhapatya), आहवनीय (āhavanīya), and दक्षिण (dakṣiṇa))
2. the number three
3. the fire of the stomach, digestive faculty, gastric fluid
4. bile
5. gold
6. name of various plants; Semicarpus anacardium, Plumbago zeylanica and Rosea, Citrus acida
7. mystical substitute for the letter r
8. in the कातन्त्र (kātantra) grammar, name of noun-stems ending in i and u

Also a proper noun (God of Fire).

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English fire:

From Middle English fier < Old English fyr < Proto-Germanic *fuir < Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *paewr- (“‘fire’”) This was an inanimate noun, whose animate counterpart was Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *egni-. Akin to Dutch vuur, German Feuer, Ancient Greek πῦρ (pur).

I can draw a few word associations from this. We have these: fur (as in a fleece, animal fur), purr (as in a cat), fer (French meaning iron - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fer#French), pyre. I know there are many others, but I only wanted to name a few.

[phliosehea]

Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)

I wouldn't worry (concerning the lamb and saying too much) since Fulcanelli elaborated on this notion by tying the prefix of Jesus (i.e. the lamb) to the Hebrew "Jes" or more aptly (אש - "AiSh") which means fire, sun, god, deity among other things. So naturally the Paschal lamb must be thoroughly burnt as per the guidelines of Exodus. Perhaps it is our שמים Shamayim we seek...?

Pierre, why is it you believe the first matter is black...? I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black". I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).

[pierre]

The first matter, crude and vile, is black, outwardly; and to the extent that we are purifying, it becomes more and more white. Then, completely pure, it is our magnet, shiny and bright. its appearance reminds us of a kind of foliated ground. In the process of purification through various colors. The green is the most notorious, before the white.

I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black"

Philalethes when speaking of the blackness, as a first matter, relates to the substance hermaphrodite: sulfur and mercury, ready to suffer the first putrefaction in the second operation. ¿Am I correct?

I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).

This means the purification of the king or sulfur, where the king was stripped of his mantle or impurities, to enter in the source.

We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

Philalethes worked in the amalgam path, with the antimony as a subject.

[Illen A. Cluf]

You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things....

Pierre,

For clarification, did you mean "lamb-fleece-oak" or "ram-fleece-oak"? I believe Fulcanelli only refers to "lamb" twice in Dwellings. However, he continually associates "ram" with "fleece", and mentions both often.

[BeautifulEvil]

We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary. In my opinion, a step towards this a step towards the realization of the end goal.

There is an appointed time in which all mysteries shall be revealed. Until this time comes I hope we can all help each other out, and hopefully remove as much confusion as possible.

Excuse me, I know I'm veering off course here so please forgive me. Let's get back to the Secret Fire discussion!