Re: The little regarded art of astrology in alchemical practice

[Anibis]

I am listening... very interested....
-A-

[Anibis]

Actually, it makes me think of Tarot. When I do a reading, I will always try to interpret the cards as a possible narrative, and in particular the more 'negative cards' as being types of challenge to face. I don't go into notions of doom or fate, just because that is not at all helpful to the querant. I always make it clear that the querant can choose to disregard the reading if they like; it's a form of play.... The reason I do this so that instead of feeling fated, the querant feels challenged. This encourages active engagement rather than passive acceptance, and as we both know, a poorly phrased reading can really really hurt a person. There is an enormous capacity for self fulfilling prophecy in the human being, and we do need to be aware of this when we interpret signs of any sort for them, I'd say... I want the querant to engage their active storytelling abilities to engage in the reading, especially when they're contemplating it in the future I don't want them to think, oh, so and so told me this would happen... Don't know if that puts me in with the modernists or not... Sorry for distracting you from your discussion of the chart; I'm totally interested in what you have to say (and yet a bit perturbed that there may be a 'pile of corpses' somewhere in my chart, lol!). Cheers,
Anibis.
I think the most accurate oracle I know is the I Ching...

[monkeyblood]

lol.....yeah,I know....exhalation of piled corpses....charming....well,thats the chinese for you....in the west that star is known as Praesepe.

Found a good article for you by Robert Hand on Fate versus Freewill....he found the answer to it in the Corpus Hermeticum where Hermes is talking to his disciple,Tat.Thought the alchemist in you would like that.Of course you could trot over to Astrodienst and look up the piece yourself.Its at the end of the article "Towards a postmodern Astrology'.....I do have a backlog.....lol

I think you'd appreciate the thoughtful,scholarly tone of Robert Hands work....John Frawley is pretty acerbic...he writes like a drag queen on speed.....I like the pugnacious astringency of his writing style but its not for everyone....

The I Ching....I only have a cursory knowledge of that system.But for my money,astrology is the supreme predictive art.You can't beat it for detail when its in the hands of a skilled practitioner....want to know if you're going to end up with an arrow in your thigh as you go into battle.....or perhaps pinpoint exactly when and where the Messiah is going to be born.......or when someones gonna try to blow you up.......and the perennial favourite,the day you're going to die...lol....beat that,other predictive systems.

I can document all of the above,if you wish.

Its scary at times....thats why they tried to ban it and outlaw it for centuries....oh,and kill practitioners....and its dangerous in the hands of unbalanced egotists.Astrology only was allowed to thrive in the twentieth century because it went almost purely psychological and spiritual.....Alan Leo only missed going to jail because he claimed it was psychological.

So the real magic was taken out of the art because powerful magic scares people and humans tend to destroy what they fear.

[monkeyblood]

......back in the saddle.....

'Having laid the foundation to the traditional judgement,let us subject this chart to our blind reading by two,astrologers,one ancient,one modern.

Our modern writer,plucked at random from the shelf,but by no means among the most downmarket of the genre (P Tillot,Tybol Astrological Almanac for 1999) outlines her method of judging a natal chart.
We start by assessing the sign on the Ascendant.....With Libra on the ascendant,our native is 'an easygoing,charming and kind personality who is diplomatic,co-operative and will do anything for peace and harmony.He is intellectually intelligent but inclined to indecision and easily influenced by others.'

We must then look to the ascendant ruler,Venus.Falling in Taurus and the seventh house,our native is'pleasant,kind,faithful,appreciates good manners;has a love of luxury,especially the home;good voice,good taste;interested in gardening;can be very possessive.'
The sun in Taurus adds a stoical nature and further concern with relationships.The Moon in Capricorn gives a 'reserved and cautious nature;....ambitious and hard worker....has a desire for success.'
We can then continue through various other points too tedious to list.

(and I cannot be bothered typing out anymore of this kind of cookbook dancing bear astrology...monkeyblood)

Once this list of points has been noted,the astrologer reaches the next stage,called 'synthesis'.This is when all the various points have to be joined together to make a coherent picture.If we imagine a recipe which reads 'Carefully weigh out all your ingredients,then toss them into a bowl in whatever order takes your fancy,' we have an idea of the art of synthesis.

So I hope you can begin to see how damaged modern astrology is when it comes to understanding the full range of a person's psyche.Just tell me where the ability and desire to mass murder millions of people and also try to impose their world view on every other living being on the planet comes from in that reading.Certainly not from the shallow degenerate practice of modern astrology.I'll just leave you with one further comment from John Frawley.

'...were Mr Hitler to wander into a contemporary astrologer's den,he would no doubt hear what a difficult childhood he had,how his creative drives are frustrated and how he feels that even those closest to him fail to understand him completely,probably finishing by being told that he has a vocation as a healer.'


The Real Astrology by John Frawley pg 14-16

[monkeyblood]

almost there.....

"From our blind reading from the past,we shall turn to Claudius Ptolemy.Remembering that our assessment of the temperament has already provided us with all the information above,we can concentrate our attention on just one point: the salient Mars\Venus conjunction.This is squared by Saturn,but more importantly,by the traditional technique of antiscion,Saturn falls exactly on this conjunction,bringing all three of these planets into immediate contact.

Antiscion is a technique almost entirely forgotten today,without which an accurate judgement of a chart is impossible;it gives what is literally the shadow of each planet(this must not be understood in the Jungian sense).

The relative strengths of the planets is something else that is largely ignored by the moderns.In Hitler's chart there is no strong planet.To use technical labels,Jupiter is in its fall,the moon and mars are in detriment;Mercury and the Sun are peregrine.This is a strong indication of the degeneracy of the nature.

Even Venus which has strength by virtue of falling in its own sign,Taurus,is handicapped by being retrograde and by its immediate contact with the two malefics,Mars and Saturn.This contact is all the more serious because both the malefics are weak,and the weaker the malefics are,the worse their effects.Occurring in fixed signs,this gives an unshakeable malaise.

According to Ptolemy,this planetary combination....In Hitlers chart...is most definitely not in an honourable position,with all these planets severely afflicted....Ptolemy suggests that in these cases,it 'makes his subjects robbers,pirates,....godless,without affection,insulting,crafty,thieves,perjurers,murderers,...robbers of temples,and of tombs,and utterly depraved.'All these points would manifest through the choleric,but degenerately choleric,temperament.

[monkeyblood]

'We might feel that Ptolemy has given us a picture somewhat closer to the mark than the peaceloving gardener that our modern blind reading has produced-not bad for someone writing almost 2000 years before the birth....It is no doubt true that we could find a modern astrologer who could give a more accurate analysis of his character from a blind reading;but our example modern is representative.

We must also note that while our modern does at least claim to be an astrologer,there is no evidence to suggest that Ptolemy ever cast a horoscope in his life.He was merely an encyclopaedist recording current practice.That an astrological layman could give so accurate a picture is entirely through the validity of the traditional method.

The Real Astrology by John Frawley pg 16

[monkeyblood]

The horizon is the line that splits the chart in half from east to west.

Forgot to put this bit in.Once more from John Frawley.

'With most of the planets above the horizon (the horizontal axis of the chart) and in angular houses (the angular houses are 1st,4th,7th and10th) this will find its outlet on the world:
Were the planets hidden below the horizon,Hitler would have spent his life thinking dreadful thoughts,rather than acting them out.'

[monkeyblood]

I found this page.In a world of disinformation this page is solid.

And its written by Chris Brennan,who is a 23 year old maven.He already has his degree from Kepler College which is one of the worlds finest astrological institutions.

http://apotelesmatics.com/2007/10/19/10-tips-for-learning-astrology/

There are also some interviews with Chris on You tube.Worth watching

[mescalinfusion]

Wow, awesome thread. Unfortunately, I am guilty of being woefully ignorant on the subject. I am just beginning my education in astrology and remembering things like that Mars rules Aries makes me want to ask for a little gold star from the teacher.
However, astrology certainly has immeasurable significance in alchemy. Most especially because the subtle forces operating through the large are the same forces operating through the small.


One of the largest aspect of medicinal alchemy has to do with understanding the operations of the planets and zodiac in the body. Thus, we may make of tincture of Mars, say made from Coriander seeds. While it is important to understand the effect a tincture of coriander seeds has on the body, what is important, from an alchemist's point of view, is that the body is imbibing the powers of Mars, working through this particular plant. This may serve to realign imbalanced aspects within the person's chart.

In the work with the Archeus of water, each of the separate 12 fractions of the water (salt of fire, sulphur of fire, mercury of fire, etc) can be attributed to one of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

The work is meant to unite heaven and earth. For terrestrial matter to more fully express and transmit the celestial powers. I know there is more I could say, but it's late and I want to go lie down and watch my favorite show, Lost

Cheers

[monkeyblood]

.....You're watching Lost already.....I am envious....we have to wait another week before it starts again.....

Hey,thanks for the positive comments....I was worried I might lose people because I was getting too technical...

Mars in Aries....rulership....such an important thing to understand....congratulations for having that under your belt....the dual rulership model is one of the primary models to learn in the foundations of astrological knowledge.I'll post it if you like.

In spite of what I know I feel I am a student of astrology,I've had to go back to basics that are never taught in modern astrology.In the tradition it seems it shares the same fundamental roots as alchemy,my teacher is well versed in alchemical philosophy.Its all new to me like the Aristotleian Primary\Primitive Qualities of hot,dry,moist and cold.

I was taught that the primitive qualities inform or act upon each other to create or scaffold the four elements.Is this the basis for alchemical practice as well? Just learning that principle began to change all that dry intellectual astro knowledge into something....I dont know how to say it but I felt a sense of the magic\energy that informs alchemical practice.I think...dont want to be presumptuous around a bunch of alchemists.

Love what youre doing in your lab...and with your medicinal research....

[deviadah]

Perhaps a resource that might be of some interest:

Astrology Theologized: The Spiritual Hermeneutics of Astrology and Holy Writ by Valentin Weigel

[monkeyblood]

I must say I find it heartening to find such an interest in astrology from such high calibre occultists as yourselves.

I would hate to think you would study some of the substandard forms of astrology that are around today....really the tradition is what I would recommend for alchemists.

Robert Zoller is a master of the astrological tradition.

I'll try to find the most trustworthy schools online for those interested.

Particularly for medicinal alchemy,having the correct astrological knowledge is essential(I'm assuming here that a birthchart is used?)

Using Hitlers chart as an example....with all those planets in earth signs that he's very earthy and heal accordingly....when actually his basic temperament is choleric(fire)

[monkeyblood]

What informs astrology is not myth....myth is valid however....but philosophy-Pythagorean,Aristotleian,Platoism and Hermetic.

D. O'Connor

[monkeyblood]

This is taken from a talk Robert Hand gave titled 'Towards a Post-Modern Astrology' in 2005.
I'm going to do it in several parts because I typed the whole thing up and just as I went to post,the connection went down.We've had heaps of storms this summer and its playing havoc with my internet connection.

Fate versus Freewill

There is the wonderful problem of fate versus freewill.I actually have arrived at an answer to this......I found the answer in one of the Stoebaeus fragments of the Corpus Hermeticum,in which Hermes is talking to his disciple,Tat,as the name is usually transliterated.
Tat asks,'Tell me again about fate,providence and necessity'. And Hermes after much intermediate material ends up with the statement along the lines of,'Fate concerns the body,necessity concerns that part of the mind that works only with the body,and providence is concerned with the mind that is fully concious'.
What they make clear in this statement is there is no one such thing as fate.There is a fate that is due to our being material beings of a certain species.No matter how hard you try,no amount of freewill will ever convert you to a dog or a cat in this lifetime.
You cannot fly without a plane - unless perhaps you are a certain kind of meditator-you cannot walk through walls without a door........you are limited by natural law.This is the fundamental meaning of fate in ancient Greek philosophy.It is physical law.

[monkeyblood]

.......Then there is the really big part of fate;there is the fate due to ignorance,called necessity.We get ourselves caught up in situations where we simply cannot conceive of an alternative,because we have all these considerations about what must be so and what must not be so,and we are determined by the consequences of past decisions and current stupidities.
That is what our fate consists of.It has nothing to do with planets!

[monkeyblood]

cont.......And then finally there is the other fate that is absolutely irrevocable,called providence.You have no choice but to be who you are.Your choice is to be who you are at the highest possible level or not.
And I would go so far as to say that who you really are preexists who you are at the present moment,and it is pulling you forward to itself,and that pull is inevitable.
Your getting all the way there,becoming a fully realized being,is not inevitable.Circumstances,accidents and of course the ever-present stupidity,or unconciousness-whatever you want to call it-will all in varying degrees prevent us from getting to that perfect self-realization.
But it is not written in the stars whether we will,or will not,ever be fully realized.
What is written in the stars is how to do it-if we could but read the chart from that point of view.

[monkeyblood]

This is one of the things the 20th century has taught us,but the 20th century has been a little weak on how to do it.

(Modern astrology is also known as 20th century astrology-monkeyblood)

Whereas I have found techniques in Greek and Medieval astrology that actually suggest how it can be done,how it can be read in the chart.
Post modern astrology will not be a fatalistic fortune-telling astrology,it will be an astrology of self-actualization and conciousness,that just happens to include all of the rest of astrology.

We evaluate,we judge,and we integrate.That is what I see coming.

Robert Hand

[deviadah]

'Fate concerns the body, necessity concerns that part of the mind that works only with the body, and providence is concerned with the mind that is fully concious'.

I like this point, and the fact that fate = natural law

Speaking as a person with a strong belief in will I would also like to add that Free Will is impossible in a world that is Unreal. Since will is deeply connected to freedom, and freedom is connected to reality (i.e. the world in which one lives has got to be free for freedom and Free Will to exist).

Now the world is not free i.e. it is a reality that is wrong (since freedom is right, and slavery is wrong). In other words the world is Unreal and therefore Free Will is impossible!

But there is hope... the next step in the human evolution will take place in the mind, not in the physical realm. And I think this is a lot what 2012 is all about: The mental re-evoultion of the Human Race!

[monkeyblood]

....hmmm.....2012.....a mental re-evolution....I sincerely hope so....I have some interesting information on the venus transit in June 2012....should I post here or another thread?......also something quite important happening around sept\oct 2008....cant wait to see what it is.......not so long to wait..

[deviadah]

...should I post here or another thread?

I think you should start a thread in General Discussions and call it 2012, every occult/esoteric forum on the entire net has at least one such thread. It would be a shame if we did not!

[monkeyblood]

Guido Bonatti 13th century astrologer from his Book of Astronomy translated by Benjamin Dykes.

Chapter 7- If someone wanted to practise alchemy.

At one time people applied themselves....to the art of alchemy: and lost their work,time and expenses,nor does this happen to them because of one error,but from many:....they do not know how to come to the conclusion of what they have practiced;

sometimes because they do not know how to proportion the bodies with the spirits;

sometimes they do not know how to elect an hour nor an Ascendant;

nor how to place the moon where she ought to be placed in order to perfect the work;

and this is one of the greatest errors which there can there can be for an alchemist.

Nor do they even know how to adapt the planet signifying the matter which they intend to work on.Whence if someone wanted to practice something concerning all these things,and he wished that you would elect the hour of its inception for you,put the Moon in common signs,cleansed of all impediments...defects...and bad condition;
and let the Ascendant be a common sign,and let its Lord be adapted [or fit] and free from impediment.

[monkeyblood]

I've developed a series of 'tells' to determine the quality of an astrologers knowledge.I'm still a student but I know more than a lot of people so I'm going to post these tells so it might make it easier to navigate through the quagmire that the Corpus Astrologica has become.Hopefully you'll miss a few of the fruitless cul de sacs I've wasted my time and money on.

[monkeyblood]

THE ZODIAC MEANS CIRCLE OF ANIMALS

WRONG!!!!!! This is quite a common mistake that makes its way through a lot of different esoteric fields.I've found it in authors ranging from Manly P Hall,Zecharia Sitchin to Nicholas Campion( a particularly careless mistake from an astrologer of his reputation). I find it hard to trust the research and theories of authors who make a mistake as basic as this.

I mean this is where thinking stops and reading starts.Especially if its published in a book by an author with a few letters after their name.

For the definition of zodiac I'm going to use the admirable Fred Gettings' Arkana Dictionary of Astrology pg 556

'The term zodiac is shamelessly misunderstood in its strictest meaning and etymology,so that there is now much confusion in the non-specialist mind about a thing which at one time was not confusing at all.
The zodiac is properly called zodiacus, a Latin term derived from the Greek zodion,itself etymologically connected with the word zoon,which is difficult of translation,but which is certainly linked with the idea of 'life' or with 'living beings'.
The popular derivations insist that the Greek zodiac was a circle of animals,which is simply not true:
it was a circle of living beings- a concept which of course links with the living beings of Ezekiel,associated with the Cherubim as the beings who dwell outside of time (the limits of time being marked in the ancient cosmoconception by the Sphere of Saturn)

Just thinking through the symbols of the zodiac you can see how inaccurate the statement is.

You've got a ram(Aries) Bull (Taurus) lion (leo)......all animals....so far,so good for the circle of animals theory.
It gets shaky with the twins (Gemini) virgin (Virgo) and waterbearer (Aquarius).....but in a pinch you could say humans are mammals therefore animals.Its getting very Cinderella now though......you know the bit where the ugly stepsister slices off her heel to get her foot in the slipper.
You can also put Sagittarius under that umbrella as he's half horse\half human.
Then the theory really starts to get bent out of shape with the crab(Cancer) scorpion (Scorpio) and the fish(pisces).The Sea goat (Capricorn) doesnt fit either and as for the scales(Libra)....there is no way an implement could be considered an animal.

Bad research....lazy thinking....half assed knowledge passing itself off as the authentic stuff.....welcome to the Corpus Astrologica as it is today!

[i]NB I was looking through some old notes from one of the leading astrologers in Australia,he's been around for decades,has a school of some repute in Melbourne and when looking at his definition of zodiac there is the same old circle of animals being trotted out.
And here's another one...they just keep cropping up and from Rudolf Steiner no less!...... from 'At home in the Universe' which is a series of lectures he did in 1923.....pg 35....hmmph.....he was using it to push a theory about the difference between animal and humans......kaput goes that theory.

[monkeyblood]

I'm really into beginning to incorporate the use of sound in my meditations in order to make them more powerful for me in terms of deepening the trance state as well as accessing them more easily.I found this interesting section on the music of astrology in Sacred Sounds by Ted Andrews.

'The solar system has its own octave that vibrates in harmony with all the other solar systems in the universe.Each planet within the solar system has its own distinct tone that is part of the octave.Together,the planets form a composition.
Just as with the planets,the signs of the zodiac have also had musical tones assigned to them....foremost of those who worked with the tonal zodiacs were Ptolemy, Johannes Kepler,..Rosicrucian Max Heindel and Rudolf Steiner promoted a tonal Zodiac based upon tonal fifths.
....(another) is based upon the chromatic scale,beginning with middle C.It relates these tones in the order normally associated with the various signs of the zodiac.Thus middle C becomes Aries,C- sharp becomes Taurus etc.
When we were born,the stars and the planets were in a particular position within the universe.The tones and harmonies of these heavenly bodies at the time you were born are also living within you.Truly,as above so below-eh?-monkeyblood
The position of the stars and planets hold the patterns of our strongest potentials and our greatest learnings.Working with them and bringing them into harmony and symphony with our own lives is an aspect of alchemy.
....Johannes Kepler established correlations between astrological aspects and consonances of music,based upon their mathematical relationships.A trine,for example,is an aspect in which the planets are 120 degrees apart.This gives it a ratio of 360:240 or 3:2.This is the mathematical ratio for the musical interval of a perfect fifth.
To hear ones astrological chart played musically is at once eerie and awesome.Musically it resonates deep within us.'

[monkeyblood]

'Another powerful way of using the mantram Om is in conjunctionwith the musical tones associated with the astrological chart.This particular method corresponds to forms of transcendental meditation [where] the individual is given a three syllable mantram that is his or hers alone.
In astrology,three predominant parts of our astrological chart are linked to the signs in which the sun,the moon and ascendant were located at the time of birth.....aka the primary triad-monkeyblood
determine the notes for each of these aspects....and,you have,in essence,created your own unique mantram.'

Sacred Sounds
Ted Andrews

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