The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:27 pm

I just wanted to get this thread started so we can begin discussion on this mysterious matter. I don't have much time to search for references, but if nobody else posts them tonight, then I guess I'll do it.

Here's something Carabric said in another thread:

"But no- I do not believe his rocks [referring to pitchblende] are in any way shape or form related to the secret fire of the alchemist. They will tell you that it is of a vaporous quality & nature- I suppose if you really want to stretch the metaphor, perhaps to the point of torture, his radioactive rocks could be vaporous in nature."


Last edited by BeautifulEvil on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
avatar
BeautifulEvil
Occultum
Occultum

Number of posts : 754
Age : 30
Registration date : 2007-10-10

View user profile http://www.englishgematria.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  carabric on Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Theories abound- the arcane fire would most likely be brought out and nourished by the art of sublimation. This is not the same definition of sublimation found in various dictionaries, since the most ancient alchemist would not likely possess the means to phase change from solid to gas with no intermediate watery phase in the middle (much like the recent icy finds discovered on Mars). Taking that into account, it would likely be something which would collect in the neck of the glass and only after many repetitions is it brought to maturity. Either way, I believe it is something which can only be understood via experimentation.
I am critical of Arts work as well as Albert Cau's, or for that matter anyone whom eschews what I feel as Alchemists are the facets of the art that should be hammered into our heads. This of course being the putrefaction, purification, and rubefication of the work that many throughout the record extol. I'm left to ask, in what way is sealing a pear in a large glass container with radioactive rocks considered alchemy? Or many other blind experiments produced by the few practitioners.
This aside, the fire is not likely seen till it's near end, and would not be something easily perceived by those outside the art. But I truly feel it is a fire nourished by fire, and is represented clibanically or geometrically in proportion to the two other fires which nourish it...namely the fire of nature (our sun) and the crude fire of the pit or kiln. The latter is often mentioned as the one most likely to destroy the work, and should only rise in slow proportion to the phases of nature and without haste.
avatar
carabric
Terrae
Terrae

Number of posts : 80
Registration date : 2008-06-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:57 am

Beautiful forum, congratulations.

About the Secret Fire, we must take into account that each path has its own Secret Fire. For example: sublimate of mercury; Vitriol, Niter, salpeter, etc...; ¿There is a Universal Secret Fire to open all the locks? ¡Yes! but not burned, nor is burned and needs no fire or flames to be activated. Is a miracle of nature, and is nature whoever produces.
Saturne-Natures...: The old green monster who devoured its progeny. That is a good and faithful metaphor. This secret fire is universal because helps generate the seed of metals by giving the conditions they need to grow in mines. You may think: He`s talking about mercury in metals ... and I say no...; about the sulphur..., and I say no, again... I say we continue to nature; to follow his steps...

I`m very much regret not being able to give the secret openly because it is the most precious and the key fundamental in nature. I`m still working on that path, but I know is the best...

I just want to ask them not to forget this alternative. Be simple in his reasoning and remember that any material that feel the fire, it´s knocked irreparably. Teachers do not burn with fire but with "water" ...

I don´t use any quimic salts, acids, glases or fire.

It`s a long humid path but the most noble.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  theFool on Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:22 am

In its most subtle form, Fire is the One Only Thing, the Undivided Light, from which all is derived. Fire is energy and energy is matter. This most subtle fire is variously called Celestial Fire, Heaven, Universal Fire, Astral Gold, Divine Will, and many more. It is described as the purest grade of fire; not burning, but gentle; invisible and known only by its operations. It is the source of all other forms of fire and its visible representative for us is the Sun. [...]

Robert Bartlett in "Real Alchemy"
And he continues to explain how this Celestial Fire operates:
[...] As the Celestial Fire begins to coagulate or condense, it forms "an invisible most subtle humidity" as the Element Air. This process of inspissation or thickening continues and the Air condenses into the Water Element, then Water condenses into the Earth Element.

theFool
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 56
Registration date : 2008-11-14

View user profile http://www.geocities.com/the.experimenter/frames.htm

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  pierre on Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:05 am

This process of inspissation or thickening continues and the Air condenses into the Water Element, then Water condenses into the Earth Element.

Accurate! completely agree; when more subtle or pure you can catch it will be the most natural alchemical path. In the bowels of the earth is a volatile vapor, erratic and without form. In the end is condensed into a substance ground very subtle and tender, although not specified to any kingdom in particular. That's why the adepts tell us that our matter is not mineral or metallic.
In this part of the Work, nature does all her own. The art does not create, only purifies the production of nature.

If we want to get the philosophical celestial fire in the most pure and simple form, we must understand what is this first terrestrial indefinite and volatile matter.

Forget the complicated and exausting works with the dew or alkaline salts and focus on this primary sustance. This substance has everything you need.

TV.NE.CEDE.MALIS.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  theFool on Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:08 am

This secret fire is universal because helps generate the seed of metals by giving the conditions they need to grow in mines.
This reminds me of what Alan Bartlett says in his book about menstruums:
They were [the menstruums], in addition, held to be filled with the vital life force and could transfer that Universal Fire to the subject of the operation - even to revivify materials. Just as the menstruum nurtures and forms the fetus, so the alchemist's menstrua possesses a nutritive power to bring forth the Chemical Child or Living Medicine.
And indeed, he mentions the existence of the Secret Fire as a special menstruum:
In some texts, a special menstruum may be referred to as Secret Fire, which provokes the dissolution or separation of the subject without the need of external fire.
This comes very close to your words, pierre:
Teachers do not burn with fire but with "water" ...
So, maybe we should take a closer look at those "texts".

theFool
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 56
Registration date : 2008-11-14

View user profile http://www.geocities.com/the.experimenter/frames.htm

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:20 am

Alan Bartlett..., hummm! ¿Do you know where can I find that book?

Yes; on the way that I follow, the spiritus mundi is incorporated in the philosophical tender matter, that acts like a magnet, being the first undeterminate mineral manifestation, or the fetus of Bartlett, as you say.

This first matter is black and vile, outwardly, but inside is white and his hearts is red. Her born all minerals and metals and therefore should have the power to dissolve them and revive them, but only when it is bustling with the celestial fire.

Only the spirits have action on the bodies; the bodies among themselves, only produce amalgam.

TV.NE.CEDE.MALIS.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  theFool on Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:22 pm

Do you know where can I find that book?
Yes, it is the book "Real Alchemy" and can be found at Amazon.

For me, all those metaphorical interpretations are rather absurd. I put myself closer to a natural scientist rather than an alchemist. So, I wonder; is this "secret fire" a tangible material or philosophic? Can we measure or even better see and touch it? It is said that when a solvent is saturated with that, it will dissolve the metals. It is said that this makes the metals alive and this is what we want to capture, with special menstruums, when we force the metals to "open" and leave behind their dead bodies. It is the fifth Element, the Quintessence, which is hidden inside every living mineral, nurtures it and forces it to ascend (or volatilize), in order to return to the Celestial Fire. I can't help it but also draw an analogy between this and the kundalini force, which according to eastern texts, is responsible for the evolution of man. What a riddle! I hope we can list here whatever references we find for this matter.

theFool
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 56
Registration date : 2008-11-14

View user profile http://www.geocities.com/the.experimenter/frames.htm

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:12 pm

This spiritual fire is invisible, so we must find a substance that be able to catch it. That`s what alchemy is: the corporization of the spirit!!! Without spirit there is no alchemy but chemistry. Only the spirit can modify the matter,
philosophically speaking, and make it evolve. It came from heaven to earth and ascends from earth to heaven. It has no form but animates everything. ¿What more can I say? Do not worry about the spiritual fire, is useless in itself, but of identifying the terrestrial substance to catch it.
Embodied this spirit in the minerals, is the secret sulfur , according to Fulcanelli...

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:25 am

Hi pierre, thanx for your posts about that primary substance; its nicely compatible with alchemical writings. Would you please tell us, if this substance could be found all year round or only sometimes and somewhere? And is then black??
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:06 am

Hi Horticult, yes; the first sustance is the spiritus mundi, (the secret fire) but the first matter in which materializes, is black, and it can be found all year in all countries and throughout the ages ... This metalic seed is a substance so tender and subtle, that if it were not protected by a vile subject, that is despised by all, would die at the slightest contact with the sun and the heat. So this seed needs moisture and darkness to grow, so do not you will find it to sunlight.
Do not be afraid to sink your hands into the debris putrfacted of nature for most disgusting as it may seem.
In that appear empty and inert matter is the biggest reward, forgotten by everyone.

Best regards.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:53 pm

Big thanx Pierre for your quick Re. Could you give some good advice or more indicia how to find that vile subject? / Please no quote from alch. writings ;-) , personal one./
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:11 am

What more can I say?

Look no minerals or metals because they are already trained and conditioned to their kingdoms. Forget about them.

Continues to nature in its development for the mineral and evolicion in the mines. Be simple in your reasoning from the beginning...; ¿As creates metals nature?

Dark matter is only the skin of the seed, which serves as its protection.

Do you like agriculture? ¿Do You like gardening? well...

Here, and in the previous post I have clearly said what you need to know; say more would say the name of his matter..., think about it, and you`ll know it...

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:50 am

Well, I do some gardening and agriculture although I do not like it much. Yesterday I checked again all places in Fulcanelli where him writes about that black subject. After years I still do not know WHAT it is. Maybe you can say what was your last impuls which lead you to discovery.
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:32 pm

Fulcanelli is one of two authors who appoints the matter such as we know it ...; in his books talk a lot about this matter, especially when spoke about the lamb and the oak; but specifically in the part where spoke about the condensation of the universal spirit on a fleece, or something like that.
You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things.

Of those connections, then there was light in my mind ...

It is not easy, I know. But we must strive to open this door, like so many others ...

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  theFool on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:42 am

Composted dung is used to boost plant growth. One could say that the nurturing secret fire could be responsile for that growth. But our science has found that nitrate salts alone, even if composed artificially, can do the same.

theFool
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 56
Registration date : 2008-11-14

View user profile http://www.geocities.com/the.experimenter/frames.htm

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:56 am

Yeahh, I almost hate this oak parable. Maybe Flamel started with it. Pernety says that the oak is the furnace.

"condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 ) .

Is there any difference between the lamb and the ram?
Would you mention the second author?

Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./


Last edited by horticult on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:00 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : automatic misinterpretation again - 8) is 8) and no a smile)
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:29 am

Fool: the universal spirit is responsible for life in all realms of nature and is embodied in all substances, including nitrates. ¿What is the key, then? Get that spirit in the purest form possible; not specified to any kingdom, yet. When more pure is obtained the spirit, more philosophical the alchemical path. In other words, less cumbersome and chemistry.

And any artificial substance, is dead.

horticult: I think lamb and the ram does not mean the same thing; The ram is the symbol of a substance X in the alchemical process, which leads the harmony between two extremes, such as water and fire. And the lamb states the subject in which the universal spirit is concentrated. Maybe someone does not agree with my thinking and can offer a fuller explanation.


"condensation of the ?universal spirit? on a fleece" this is also mentioned in bible. (Jdg 6:38 )
.

That part of the Bible mark the ratio between the lamb and the universal spirit, but IMO, just means substances by analogy. ¿What do you think?

Hortucult, please, hate not part of the oak, that's when he speaks most clearly ...

Would you mention the second author?

Mmmm..., I guess not...

Btw, the real fleece was used, just throw it in a creek, and pull it out with golden particles. /I think maybe catched by lanolin./

Please, do not miss prospect, Focus on alchemy.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

lanolin

Post  horticult on Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:24 am

I wanted only to check my own statement and wow! Crazy :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  pierre on Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:38 am

No; Lanolin is not the subject I want to display. The secret substance does not necessarily come from the wool; it`s just an analogy by way of association. As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".

¿What relationship is there between the lanolin and oak...?

Remember that even discard the rocks and metals as producers of the secret matter, not because it ceases to be of mineral origin...; which is to say much in few words.

The metals and minerals come from the same root: from this subtle and tender secret magnet...

The universal spirit is embodied by attraction in this magnet and it forms the sulfur secret. Then, for reasons of fate, this substance is evolving into the realm of metals, so that could be directed toward the plant kingdom.

I do not think the lanolin acts as philosophical magnet.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:55 am

As I said, the lamb, the ram and the oak are associated through the Kabala and "The language of the birds".
Pierre, are you familiar with the "Language of the Birds?" That would explain a lot!

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
avatar
BeautifulEvil
Occultum
Occultum

Number of posts : 754
Age : 30
Registration date : 2007-10-10

View user profile http://www.englishgematria.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  pierre on Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:41 pm

I am not fully knowledgeable about the lenguage of the birds, but I endeavor to learn more and more. Many things can be said without giving to understand that are saying. It is not easy to find the relationship between the meaning and content of the words of the secret language.

Without insight into the principles of the relationship between the secret art, mythology, substances and metaphors, it is impossible to break the bargain that covers the meaning of words. It`s the study of a lifetime...

It is not sufficient to consider phonetics of the word studied, but the relationship between the reactions of the materials with each other, and the correspondence they have with the mythological characters they represent.

Etc...

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  solomon levi on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:58 pm

Greetings Pierre,
Is it necessary to know french to comprehend Fulcanelli's clues?

Oak - chene
Fleece - toison, flocon
lamb - agneau

agneau sounds/looks like fire-water - shamayim.

Latin:
lamb - agnus
oak - quercus
fleece - vellus

Greek:
lamb - agnos
oak - drus
fleece - malli

malli is interesting because it is like apple which is like gall, oak gall - galle du chene


Is this useful at all or unnecessary?

solomon levi
Rectificando
Rectificando

Number of posts : 262
Registration date : 2008-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  pierre on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:49 pm

Hi, Salomon Levi; Know the author's original language is important, but Fulcanelli used very much Greek and Latin.

The translation of the words that you show us, refers to what igneous. That is fine. Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:26 pm

I am not saying that lanolin is for alch. work; by the old creek-fleece method I want to show a "strange" analogy between worlds.
avatar
horticult
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 34
Registration date : 2008-04-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum