The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:34 pm

Translations for lamb:
Latin: agnus
Greek: agnos
French: agneau
Italian: agnello
Old Church Slavonic: агнѧ (agnę), агньць (agnĭcĭ)
Croatian: janje
Slovene: jagnje
Polish: jagnię
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Latin ignis:
From Proto-Indo-European *h₁ngʷni-. Cognate with Sanskrit अग्नि (agní), Hittite (a-ak-ni-iš), Old Church Slavonic огнь (ognĭ), Old Prussian ugnis.

1. fire
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Italian igneo:
igneo m (f ignea, m plural ignei, f plural ignee)

1. flaming, fervid
2. igneous
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Sanskrit aअग्नि (Agní):
1. fire, sacrificial fire (of three kinds, गार्हपत्य (gārhapatya), आहवनीय (āhavanīya), and दक्षिण (dakṣiṇa))
2. the number three
3. the fire of the stomach, digestive faculty, gastric fluid
4. bile
5. gold
6. name of various plants; Semicarpus anacardium, Plumbago zeylanica and Rosea, Citrus acida
7. mystical substitute for the letter r
8. in the कातन्त्र (kātantra) grammar, name of noun-stems ending in i and u

Also a proper noun (God of Fire).
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English fire:
From Middle English fier < Old English fyr < Proto-Germanic *fuir < Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *paewr- (“‘fire’”) This was an inanimate noun, whose animate counterpart was Proto-Indo-European *perjos, *egni-. Akin to Dutch vuur, German Feuer, Ancient Greek πῦρ (pur).

I can draw a few word associations from this. We have these: fur (as in a fleece, animal fur), purr (as in a cat), fer (French meaning iron - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fer#French), pyre. I know there are many others, but I only wanted to name a few.

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:35 am

pierre wrote: Agnus-Agni-Agnos= a matter of fire, or relating to fire. (Oops..., I think I've already said too much.)
I wouldn't worry (concerning the lamb and saying too much) since Fulcanelli elaborated on this notion by tying the prefix of Jesus (i.e. the lamb) to the Hebrew "Jes" or more aptly (אש - "AiSh") which means fire, sun, god, deity among other things. So naturally the Paschal lamb must be thoroughly burnt as per the guidelines of Exodus. Perhaps it is our שמים Shamayim we seek...?

Pierre, why is it you believe the first matter is black...? I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black". I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  pierre on Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:25 am

The first matter, crude and vile, is black, outwardly; and to the extent that we are purifying, it becomes more and more white. Then, completely pure, it is our magnet, shiny and bright. its appearance reminds us of a kind of foliated ground. In the process of purification through various colors. The green is the most notorious, before the white.

I only ask because Philalethes would say that the matter "progresses" to a blackened state...which would mean it began as something "not black"

Philalethes when speaking of the blackness, as a first matter, relates to the substance hermaphrodite: sulfur and mercury, ready to suffer the first putrefaction in the second operation. ¿Am I correct?

I know others (like Trevisan) mislead some and suggest that the first vesture the king takes off is black...but he says that this only happens after a certain amount of time (per his instructions).

This means the purification of the king or sulfur, where the king was stripped of his mantle or impurities, to enter in the source.

We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

Philalethes worked in the amalgam path, with the antimony as a subject.

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Secret Fire

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:30 pm

pierre wrote: You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things....

Pierre,

For clarification, did you mean "lamb-fleece-oak" or "ram-fleece-oak"? I believe Fulcanelli only refers to "lamb" twice in Dwellings. However, he continually associates "ram" with "fleece", and mentions both often.
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:37 pm

We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.
I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary. In my opinion, a step towards this a step towards the realization of the end goal.

There is an appointed time in which all mysteries shall be revealed. Until this time comes I hope we can all help each other out, and hopefully remove as much confusion as possible.

Excuse me, I know I'm veering off course here so please forgive me. Let's get back to the Secret Fire discussion!

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  deviadah on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:07 pm

BeautifulEvil wrote:I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary.
Without the risk of getting way off topic I must say I strongly concur. We must also remember that when we try to clarify we also learn immensly at the same time. To be simple is difficult...

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Secret Fire

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:56 pm

BeautifulEvil wrote:I think more confusion is the last thing we need. The art is already an enigma, and such confusion would only prove to make the task even more difficult. I believe we should try to clarify the works of our alchemical forefathers as much as possible, and by any means necessary. In my opinion, a step towards this a step towards the realization of the end goal.

I always found it strange, that in order to understand alchemy, one must first be be well versed in Greek mythology, foreign language puns, and have a knowledge of the "bird language", which in turn is often explained in foreign language books. Even Greek mythology has no consistency as there are many versions of the myths, depending on which of numerous sources one studies, and also numerous ways one can interpret the same myths. There are no standards when it comes to myth interpretation.

This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy? There was a time for riddles and puzzles, when knowledge of the process of making the Stone could result in torture or brutal death of those who knew the secrets. I personally feel that today, we should rely less on riddles and substitute that with a gradual understanding of philosophy and Nature, which in turn will help understand the processes behind making the Stone much more clearly and efficiently. I do agree that some discretion is required, and that the ultimate answers should not be held out on a transmuted gold platter for those who have no desire or determination to try to understand Nature and Philosophy first.

There are some past alchemists who spoke much more plainly, and focused on the processes of Nature and Philosophy in their explanations. Even if one could still not understand how the Stone is made through their writings, at least there was learning involved, rather than skill development in puzzles and riddles.

Having said that, I'm not at all opposed to the use of riddles and puzzles when it comes to the hermetic art - I just prefer the alternate route to understanding and learning while I study and research. To me, it just seems more productive.
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  Dizardos on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:07 pm

pierre wrote:The first matter, crude and vile, is black, outwardly; and to the extent that we are purifying, it becomes more and more white. Then, completely pure, it is our magnet, shiny and bright. its appearance reminds us of a kind of foliated ground. In the process of purification through various colors. The green is the most notorious, before the white.

We must be alert to the classic authors, as disguise and blend the order of operations to create confusion in the minds of the student.

Philalethes worked in the amalgam path, with the antimony as a subject.

No offense, but I find that you add a similar amount of confusion to the subject while you blame the classic authors. You may not speak the language of the birds very well, but to my perception lots of bird feathers are being ruffled for no reason. To speak of fire is not such a grand secret. It is not without reason that the word 'lamb' and 'lamp' are so similar and even the bible states that it is the light there of. As a matter of fact the reference of 'lamb' to 'agnus' and thus to 'ignus' can simply be found in books. Furthermore even the name Fulcanelli is a direct reference to Vulcan, god of fire, so truly it is not such a grand conception. I believe that the works of classic authors such Philalethes can speak for themselves and do not need to be chained to a rock like Andromeda in substances and paths, but do as you wish if it does good in your opinion.

Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.

Those who find that the chaos in the alchemical jungle becomes too great should listen to the one who never lets them down and upon one can always trust. That is yourself.

Have a nice day everyone!

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:49 am

Dizardos wrote:
Those who find that the chaos in the alchemical jungle becomes too great should listen to the one who never lets them down and upon one can always trust. That is yourself.
Welcome to the forum Dizardos...I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the dense forest of alchemy...perhaps this jungle is intimately entwined with these ancient words.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν
gnothi seauton
"Know Thyself"

Great words of wisdom from Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Socrates...or anyone else that ascribes to that aphorism.

This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy?
Well...I've read many times that Nature is the open book of Alchemy. In my mind it is truth. And these words, riddles, puns, and puzzles are obviously the closed book. These closed books have helped my understanding of the art on a smaller level, the level of detail, the level of someone who has been there and experienced the work intimately- would know. It is through these riddles and puns that I know why the plumb must be level, and how (in my understanding) when Paracelsus speaks of marcasite I know not to bother with the mineral. Because when I see marcasite I see the sea...and its waters are not calmed for some time.
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  theFool on Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:12 am

It is nice to speak with metaphors and riddles because they trigger imagination and help you get a feeling of the teachings on a heart level, not only with mind. But the great school is practical work itself. There, your self will teach you exactly the lesson you need to know.

Edit: I transported the rest of the message here: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/dew-rainwater-snow-ice-t396-30.htm#3748


Last edited by theFool on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:11 am

Hi everyone.
I know it's cumbersome and tedious to analyze the mythology and parables in connection with alchemy. But it is the only way forward. Without this form of teaching is not alchemy; As our forefathers always said and warned, this science was not for anyone, but for the initiated; that is, scholars who by their effort, managed to knowledge. You knew this from the beginning, my dear friends...; not be mad at me ...

When teachers tell us clearly, they lie with impunity, but that's the law. And you knew it, too. From the moment that the authors used riddles to teach, we are condemned to play your own game or fooled irreparably.

Anyone who has deciphered the riddle for the systematic study for years, is going to give away the knowledge, believe me.

Alchemy is a science very lonely and staff ...

phliosehea wrote:
This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy?

And I say this humbly,: No..., it is for all who wish to learn alchemy, because there is no other way ...

None of the contemporary authors who openly tried to teach alchemy, was able to get someone to produce the stone. The alchemy was not formerly, only the formula to transform metals into gold, was an integral and comprehensive science. The evolution and development of the being on its own merits.

Dizardos wrote:
I believe that the works of classic authors such Philalethes can speak for themselves and do not need to be chained to a rock like Andromeda in substances and paths

Philalethes has been denounced by several alchemycal authors as one of the most deceptive philosophers, under the lure of sincerity.

Illen A. Cluf wrote:
For clarification, did you mean "lamb-fleece-oak" or "ram-fleece-oak"? I believe Fulcanelli only refers to "lamb" twice in Dwellings. However, he continually associates "ram" with "fleece", and mentions both often.


Yes, the relationship is lamb / freece / oak... In the first book "Le mystére des Cathedrales" there are many clues about it.

And finally, I always remember a warning that many people have done to me over the years: do not believe anything unless you've checked for yourself.

Sad but true...

PS: Was not my intention to create controversy. Sorry if that is what happened.

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  Dizardos on Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:40 pm

pierre wrote:Hi everyone.
I know it's cumbersome and tedious to analyze the mythology and parables in connection with alchemy. But it is the only way forward. Without this form of teaching is not alchemy; As our forefathers always said and warned, this science was not for anyone, but for the initiated; that is, scholars who by their effort, managed to knowledge. You knew this from the beginning, my dear friends...; not be mad at me ...

When teachers tell us clearly, they lie with impunity, but that's the law. And you knew it, too. From the moment that the authors used riddles to teach, we are condemned to play your own game or fooled irreparably.

Anyone who has deciphered the riddle for the systematic study for years, is going to give away the knowledge, believe me.

Alchemy is a science very lonely and staff ...

phliosehea wrote:
This is all great for those who enjoy puzzles and riddles, but what does proficiency in those skills have to do with understanding Nature and Alchemy?

And I say this humbly,: No..., it is for all who wish to learn alchemy, because there is no other way ...

None of the contemporary authors who openly tried to teach alchemy, was able to get someone to produce the stone. The alchemy was not formerly, only the formula to transform metals into gold, was an integral and comprehensive science. The evolution and development of the being on its own merits.

Dizardos wrote:
I believe that the works of classic authors such Philalethes can speak for themselves and do not need to be chained to a rock like Andromeda in substances and paths

Philalethes has been denounced by several alchemycal authors as one of the most deceptive philosophers, under the lure of sincerity.

And finally, I always remember a warning that many people have done to me over the years: do not believe anything unless you've checked for yourself.

Sad but true...

PS: Was not my intention to create controversy. Sorry if that is what happened.

While all paths lead to Rome, only one needs to be followed to get there. I do agree that all the symbolism and mythology can be very useful and it is definitely not one of the most covert methods employed to explain the Opus Magnum. The correspondences can be truly ingenious. Gematria is for example so much more difficult to decipher.

I wonder whether you employed your own slogan of "Do not believe anything unless you've checked for yourself" in relation to the works of Philalethes as well instead of only going on the words of those authors. It happens often that Philosophers start out very cryptic in their first works and realize that nobody understood their meaning and therefore the works following the first become more lucid (since they did not intend that nobody would understand, but only the best). Basilius Valentinus and Paracelsus have works too that are so cryptic that only adepts can make out their meaning (with effort) and there are many others besides them that have similar 'problems'. History shows that it happened often that those who found lucid alchemical works of great value have hidden this knowledge from the world to their own advantage. From the Hebrew letter Pe the word Power is derived and so too one of your riddles.

Nevertheless I do not agree with the opinion that it has to be difficult and veiled in order for new students to learn. It is a conscious choice made by adepts that it is so. It can indeed work out better for the world since it makes sure that every alchemist acquires the preferred characteristics along the way and it shapes their personality, although I am not knowledgeable enough to comment about that properly. It will be hard to know what would happen to the world if the Art would be taught more openly up to a certain extent.

I find it rather strange that someone who employs similar methods up to a certain extent holds such different opinions.

Have a nice day everyone!

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:11 pm

pierre wrote:Hi everyone.
I know it's cumbersome and tedious to analyze the mythology and parables in connection with alchemy. But it is the only way forward. Without this form of teaching is not alchemy; As our forefathers always said and warned, this science was not for anyone, but for the initiated; that is, scholars who by their effort, managed to knowledge. You knew this from the beginning, my dear friends...; not be mad at me ...

Hello Pierre,

I don't think that any of the comments were directed towards you personally, at least that was not my intent. I was expressing my frustration at the old Alchemists in general and their use of Greek mythology, puns and riddles to explain their work, much like an adult would do with young children. But, as you have remarked, we are stuck with it, and we must find a way to depher what they meant so that we can subsequently explain it in our own terms.

I realize that you were attempting to decipher one set of symbols associated with the initial and prepared matter. The oak in general represents the common name of the initial subject as found in the mine, but more specifically can refer to name of the raw mercurial matter when its galls are considered, or to the prepared substance when its kirmis (kermes) is considered. The lamb represents the symbol of the cross and is an emblem of the purification of the arsenical principle. "Dwellings" includes a much more interesting explanation for the meaning of the "X" which I'm sure you are familiar with. As for the fleece, it represents the matter prepared for the work, as wel as the final result. Thus it is the matter in its different aspects as it goes through the purificaiton, fixation and maturity stages.

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:13 pm

I think we're all having a very good discussion here. Some of these things need to be said. Pierre, please keep in mind we are speaking in general, and we're only trying to have a friendly discussion. I know I can't speak for myself when I say I appreciate you sharing your words with us.

"Dwellings" includes a much more interesting explanation for the meaning of the "X" which I'm sure you are familiar with.
I REALLY need to buy a copy of Dwellings. I can't believe I've waited so long to read it.

Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.
This was my conclusion too. It reminds me of the work of Barbault and his book "Gold of a Thousand Mornings."

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:42 am

pierre: Philalethes has been denounced by several alchemical authors as one of the most deceptive philosophers, under the lure of sincerity.
I know in what reference you are quoting this...and even though Fulcanelli inferred certain deceptive notions regarding Philalethes he goes on at length to quote, compare, and reference his (Philalethes) works in many passages (i.e. "eagles to lions" etc...) that in my opinion- to shun his works would be unwise...otherwise why would he bother to quote his writings throughout? The same can be said about Paracelsus denouncing Geber and Magnus: Paracelsus: The Aurora of the Philosophers: But this is not done in the way pointed out by such evil sophists as Geber in "The Sum of Perfection", Albertus Magnus, Aristotle the chemist in "The Book of the Perfect Magistery", Rhasis and Polydorus; for those writers, however many they be, are either themselves in error, or else they write falsely out of sheer envy, and put forth receipts whilst not ignorant of the truth." and "Taken altogether, these are merely deceitful dreams. Avoid also the particular sophistry of Geber; for example, his sevenfold sublimations or mortifications, and also the revivifications of Mercury" I suppose what I am getting at is; I would look deeply at who they denounce in addition to who they praise.

Dizardos: It can indeed work out better for the world since it makes sure that every alchemist acquires the preferred characteristics along the way and it shapes their personality, although I am not knowledgeable enough to comment about that properly. It will be hard to know what would happen to the world if the Art would be taught more openly up to a certain extent.

That first sentence resounds very true...reminds me of something I read in one of Bacstroms works "The L.P. (Lapis Philosophorum) either finds or makes a good man". I've definitely been shaped/reshaped along the way, and still am- and of course have much more in front of me to be done... I suspect that the closed books will be open soon, but for some reason that idea is very terrifying to me.
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:53 am

BeautifulEvil wrote:
I REALLY need to buy a copy of Dwellings. I can't believe I've waited so long to read it.
Yes...put it on your Christmas list.
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Re: The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  horticult on Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:14 am

Dizardos wrote:
Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.

I can not comprehend, how the potassium carbonate should be black or vile? Its a useful magnet ;-) , but what about that description?
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  solomon levi on Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:38 am

horticult wrote:
Dizardos wrote:
Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.

I can not comprehend, how the potassium carbonate should be black or vile? Its a useful magnet ;-) , but what about that description?

I was curious about potassium carbonate too.
Pierre said he uses no qumic (chemic) salts and not to look in the mineral kingdom.
Does that exclude this material or is it an exception as it comes from plants?

Early on he said 'no' to mercury and sulphur, but not to salt, and the old texts all agree that
the condensation of light/fire through air and water into earth manifests as salt, the salt of nature.

But yes, it's hard to think of anything I find vile or despise?

The Fulcanelli group said the matter was similar to in appearance, but not, Nostoc.
And one of them said we say the name of it every day, but moreso during one half of the year...
I forget the months he said. I'll try to find it. Does anyone else know what I'm referring to?
Then does "we" refer to french speaking people only or...?

In a thread below titled "pics unio sulphur et sal de vinum", I posted a nice
pic of the green stage which reminded me of Ripley's toad because I obtained it
by "gorging it on grapes".
I hadn't considered potassium carbonate to be the first matter though.
I was just combining the three principle of the vine.
One path uses the grapevine alone to produce the stone as it provides the three principles
of our art.

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Thank you Pierre!

Post  Etherize on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:41 am

I believe I understand what you are saying Pierre, I guess I was ready to hear it. I have read the clues a thousand times but it never really struck me until NOW. I now understand why all the riddles and puzzles. When you do understand what is being talked about, if you were told straight out what it was you would dismiss the information as foolish. But having to research and puzzle over the answer makes you treasure it.

Thanks again Pierre,

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The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:08 am

Etherize, Thank you for you understanding. I could not have said this better than you.

Pierre.

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:03 am

Pierre:
None of the contemporary authors who openly tried to teach alchemy, was able to get someone to produce the stone

So Pierre, do you believe you understand the method to produce the stone? Out of curiousity... how long do you think it will take you to produce it when you begin?
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The Secret Fire of The Philosophers

Post  pierre on Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:22 pm

phliosehea:

what I tried to say is that even though many contemporary writers openly taught as making the Philosopher's Stone, none was able to obtain it. And this is a fact, until someone proves otherwise.

And if someone has obtained the stone, well..., ¿Do you know him?

I do not have the stone; that`s obvious, ¿don`t you think? I just describe my work, in this forum, and other people can agree with it or not.

But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?

Until then..., there will be no philosopher's stone, my mistrusted friend; only pseudo alchemy.

That`s what I really Think...

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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  Dizardos on Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:40 pm

horticult wrote:
Dizardos wrote:
Nevertheless back to the matter at hand...your method. It sounds as if you are going to dig under a green oak for your black matter,dirt, which apparently has to represent potassium carbonate by virtue of references by Fulcanelli to words such as 'lamb', 'oak', 'the Green Lion', 'magnetic agent' and 'rotten'. I will leave it at that and wish you the best with this method.

I can not comprehend, how the potassium carbonate should be black or vile? Its a useful magnet ;-) , but what about that description?

I will explain it by means of quotes from Pierre:

"This spiritual fire is invisible, so we must find a substance that be able to catch it."

"Do not worry about the spiritual fire, is useless in itself, but of identifying the terrestrial substance to catch it. "

"Fulcanelli is one of two authors who appoints the matter such as we know it ...; in his books talk a lot about this matter, especially when spoke about the lamb and the oak; but specifically in the part where spoke about the condensation of the universal spirit on a fleece, or something like that.
You must link: lamb-fleece-oak, and discover what they have in common these three things."

"Do not be afraid to sink your hands into the debris putrfacted of nature for most disgusting as it may seem.
In that appear empty and inert matter is the biggest reward, forgotten by everyone."

It appears only black when impure, but potassium carbonate is indeed white when completely purified. Some other interesting names of potassium carbonate are: pearl ash, potash, salt of tartar and salt of wormwood.

It is merely my opinion that this is what Pierre referred to, although it does not have my preference.


Last edited by Dizardos on Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:02 pm

Pierre mentioned we should follow the evolutionary path in the mines. How does potassium carbonate figure into this?

For the sake of discussion, let's say it is potassium carbonate. What do we do with it?

But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?
False paths you say? How can we say which paths are true and which are false? It seems like we would need experimental confirmation to prove such things. I don't believe merely discussing a path, and relating it to the words of the old alchemists, is a 100% way to confirm or deny something. Nature does not use glass or flames, but that's because glass/flasks are man's inventions (nature has earth to do her work). However, nature does use heat (which is merely a less intense form of our fire principle). Can we help nature, and speed up her work, through flasks and fire? I believe so, but you may call me a sophist if you like.

I believe we should give equal consideration for each "method" and "path" since none of us have the stone. The cryptic nature of our posts should not be a determining factor in who's right and who's wrong. Just because a post is cryptic, or a poster can't (doesn't) say much, doesn't always mean their method is the true method. Likewise, it doesn't always mean their method is the only method.

Nature has an infinite way of acting on matter, and produces an infinite number of variations. Likewise, we should not look for the stone in one single substance or path, but a number of substances and paths. Nature may not use fire or flasks to perform her work, but this does not mean we shouldn't be able to use such things in our work. Nature may produce the substance, but we have to act on it.

Maybe I'm going in circles here.

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
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Re: The Secret Fire of the Philosophers

Post  phliosehea on Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:14 pm

pierre wrote:phliosehea:
And if someone has obtained the stone, well..., ¿Do you know him?

No I do not know anyone who has, but I do believe I understand the method.

pierre wrote: I do not have the stone; that`s obvious, ¿don`t you think? I just describe my work, in this forum, and other people can agree with it or not.

Not really, nothings obvious over the internet...or for that matter, in person either... especially if it concerns alchemy.

pierre wrote:But I am fully convinced that the methods now being used to get the stone, are inadequate and are on false paths. ¿Why? Because our forefathers prohibited use acids or fire vulgar to work their substances. Does the nature uses glass or flames to perform their metalic productions?

Oh I wholly agree...I have a bit of a history of disagreeing with the bulk of what is construed as "alchemy".

pierre wrote:Until then..., there will be no philosopher's stone, my mistrusted friend; only pseudo alchemy.
That`s what I really Think...

Yes there is much pseudo alchemy, but the stone has never left us...and can always be had at hand- with a little time, patients, and determination.
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