Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

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Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  WCH on Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:07 am

Due to less than ideal (but entirely acceptable) circumstances, it seems I won't be able to have my own laboratory until I move, which will hopefully be for November 1st. That means it'll be late fall; here in Toronto, we usually don't have our first "real" snowfall until around Christmas time, but the thaw begins substantially earlier than that.

The process I am familiar with for making the ens involves leaving salt of tartar to deliquesce in the night air. This requires it to be a time of year in which there is an abundance of dew -- frost makes this unlikely. Some people refer to slowly adding rainwater as a substitute or supplement for the dew, so I presume that either method works -- I have not tried yet.

What I'm wondering is what the differences are, if any, between dew, rainwater and other forms of water? Would the balance of ions perhaps be different? If it is the case that dew and rainwater are objectively better for the purpose of the ens, I wonder if melted snow could substitute -- gathered just before dawn after or during the snowfall, to keep it in line with the symbolic aspect. Has anybody used melted snow? Is there any difference between it and rainwater, or between either and dew?
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  solomon levi on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:32 pm

Melted snow is fine. Any precipitation.
I've read that powdery snow, or fresh is better than something with a
crust over it.
I'm not really sure of the differences. Thunderstorms have more nitrogen.
Nitrogen is one factor. Another factor is the sun and moon.
Dew will naturally be moon water. Rain and snow could be sun or moon depending
on circumstances. These correspond to sulphur and mercury, but I think that is for
another work and not important to making an ens. It's important if you wanted to make
the Philosophers' stone from precipitation only.

Your potassium will still pull moisture from the air.
Just heat it in the oven at 300F for an hour and put it outside in the evening.
This expels any moisture that's already in it and opens it up to absorb the atmosphere.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:52 pm

The process I am familiar with for making the ens involves leaving salt of tartar to deliquesce in the night air. This requires it to be a time of year in which there is an abundance of dew -- frost makes this unlikely. Some people refer to slowly adding rainwater as a substitute or supplement for the dew, so I presume that either method works -- I have not tried yet.
Rainwater will work too, but the secret fire is much less concentrated. The quality of rai water also varies, especially if you live in polluted areas or large cities.

What I'm wondering is what the differences are, if any, between dew, rainwater and other forms of water?
There are various trace chemicals available in dew, that's not available in rainwater, and vice versa. Not only that, but like I said earlier, the concentration of the "secret fire" also varies (seasons are an important factor too). Water is not pure H2O like may are lead to believe, but it's rather a mixture of various types of water like molecules. I have a reference somewhere, but I'll have to dig to find it.

Has anybody used melted snow?
Snow will work well, but the level of secret fire it contains is very low since it's spawned in the winter season. It's just frozen rainwater after all.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  WCH on Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:25 am

Has anyone performed a chematography on the different types of water to see the actual differences? I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of the ion ratios, etc... I appreciate the advice given, but I'm not sure what is speculation and what is proven.

I know that rainwater in areas with substantial air pollution, for instance, contains oil of vitriol (hence: acid rain). Since salt of tartar is alkaline, wouldn't the presence of the oil of vitriol lead to a weaker resultant solution?
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  phliosehea on Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:31 am

We also know that the dew of May or Emerald of the philosophers is green and that the adept Cyliani metaphorically declares this vehicle to be essential for the work. Thus, we do not claim to insinuate that it is necessary to collect, as certain spagirists and characters of the Mutus Liber, the nocturnal dew of the month of Mary, by attributing to it qualities which we know it does not have. The dew of the sages is a salt, not a water, but it is the special coloration of this water which is used to designate our subject.

Dwellings of the Philosophers-Fulcanelli

Perhaps this seems like a Gordian knot, yet one even tighter than Alexander's, which can only be cut by the sword of reason.
As I have often told my sons of knowledge and wisdom, the Philosophers' sulphur is first formed when the water has returned to the earth. At times it floats on the top of the water and is multicoloured, like the earth covered in foliage, or like some kind of thick broth. All these different hues derive from the greenness of the vitriol.

The Consideratio Brevis - Philip à Gabella
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  Salazius on Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:35 am

For me, dew is not the same thing as rain water, also different of snow or ice. Just a question of bio-magnetism/astral captation. It do not form in the same condition, there is a different signature in it.
In the Cinnabar way, of Roger Caro, it's not ice that is used, not rain water, but the salt of dew.

But, this "dew", told about in different books, is not maybe the common dew, but something else.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  solomon levi on Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:31 am

You may want to read up on the Archeus of water.
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/reid2-8.html

You can read it in other alchemy books too.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:04 pm

We also know that the dew of May or Emerald of the philosophers is green and that the adept Cyliani metaphorically declares this vehicle to be essential for the work. Thus, we do not claim to insinuate that it is necessary to collect, as certain spagirists and characters of the Mutus Liber, the nocturnal dew of the month of Mary, by attributing to it qualities which we know it does not have. The dew of the sages is a salt, not a water, but it is the special coloration of this water which is used to designate our subject.

Dwellings of the Philosophers-Fulcanelli

Very good quotes phliosehea, and after reading these it should be quite obvious there's more to it than meets the eye. Fulcanelli mentioned it's a salt, and not a water. He also mentioned: "... Emerald of the philosophers is green ..." - is this an indication of it's outward appearance, or is it merely another allegory? Green could also stand for the liveliness of the particular salt. Perhaps it's vital "life" or "astral" energy if you will.

Of course, then we also have the next quote mentioning that it floats on water, but interestingly enough another hint is given: it displays many varied colors. So it's iridescent? If it's not a water, does that also mean it's not an oil either, or rather not liquid at all? If that's the case, then it must be some type of film or a layer of crystals floating on the top. I know in the book "Gold of a Thousand Mornings" (which in my eye is the most philosophical method for producing the aurum potable) the author mentions this golden tidbit of information:

This aurified liquor, which according to spectrum ana­lysis contains not the slightest trace of gold, is alkaline and has no toxic element which would prohibit its use. But
what in fact is it in relation to the ancient alchemical terms? Is it POTABLE GOLD, VEGETABLE GOLD or VEGETABILISED GOLD? Or again is it FLOWER OF GOLD, so called because of a golden star which floats above the liquor? It is difficult to say. However, as I shall stress a little later on, I am tempted to see in it, comparing it with certain ancient texts, that Vegetable Gold so called because the corresponding solvent is neither a metal nor a mineral. It comes from the earth and is transformed after years of preparation. After it has several times produced its INTERNAL FIRE and become totally neutral and in­active, the Leaven can regain its energy if it is mixed with a large quantity of green plants, sap and dew, alternatively being moistened and dried.

Please feel free to expound on this a little bit more if you see fit - I know I would appreciate it.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  phliosehea on Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:42 pm

[Gold of a Thousand Mornings] Born in Champoulet, in 1948 Barbault began to rework a process depicted in the 1677 alchemical work, the Mutus Liber.
Thus, we do not claim to insinuate that it is necessary to collect, as certain spagirists and characters of the Mutus Liber, the nocturnal dew of the month of Mary, by attributing to it qualities which we know it does not have.

Not to contradict your studies but I believe Fulcanelli was speaking out against this work by Barbault.

Concerning the star... well that more or less signifies the unity of the elements, having six rays to show both the "fire" element ▲ (or sulphur) and the "water" element ▼ (or mercury) have ceased to battle... It is the two thing, or rebis something that can only be understood by the metaphoric squaring of the circle (whence the square and compass held by the rebis). [Incidentally I believe that is why the cross is in the town square]

The globe they are standing appears to represent the incremental increase of the fire necessary within the work, and that it is to be raised clibanically or geometrically in proportion with each phase. This increase of fire, bears a striking similarity to the Pythagorean theorem. It is also this level of incremental intensity we have to look forward too within the macrocosm... if the cross is correct.

Here I say more then I should, but the times we are in are urgent. Vitriol, the "water" Fulcanelli mentions is green...it gets confused with being an acid more often then not because it is the universal dissolvent. It is not acidic in the manner you and many presume. No thing in this world is like this Green liquid, it is only found through art- i.e. you will not be able to purchase this ready made. It is called the blood of the Green Lion, secret water, and its Latin name acetum acerrimum which roughly (and cabalistically) means "the sharp bitter vinegar of the maple"...please don't macerate a poor maple tree to find this unique sap. It is associated with the maple cabalistically- only because that is the first time it is traditionally found...that being early spring- when the maple blooms. This same vinegar, was given to Christ on his Cross just before he died. Think with reason- and focus on one thing at a time.

Mark 15:36 And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:14 pm

It doesn't surprise me that its possible I may have been looking at it from the wrong perspective once again.

Not to contradict your studies but I believe Fulcanelli was speaking out against this work by Barbault.
Perhaps, but there is evidence that Barbault's aurum potable was medicinally active. Some of his research sounds fairly proper, but then again, most research on these subjects SOUNDS like it could be proper, but in reality only another dead end. I am not sure honestly. I've been wrong a million times before. Smile


Here I say more then I should, but the times we are in are urgent. Vitriol, the "water" Fulcanelli mentions is green...it gets confused with being an acid more often then not because it is the universal dissolvent. It is not acidic in the manner you and many presume. No thing in this world is like this Green liquid, it is only found through art- i.e. you will not be able to purchase this ready made. It is called the blood of the Green Lion, secret water, and its Latin name acetum acerrimum which roughly (and cabalistically) means "the sharp bitter vinegar of the maple"...please don't macerate a poor maple tree to find this unique sap. It is associated with the maple cabalistically- only because that is the first time it is traditionally found...that being early spring- when the maple blooms. This same vinegar, was given to Christ on his Cross just before he died. Think with reason- and focus on one thing at a time.
This is a gem, thank you very much. Barbault mentions this about the blood of the Green Lion, and also has something interesting to say about the blood of the Red Lion. Please note these are actually drawn from the green lively sap of plants collected at dawn in the springtime. I cannot say whether these are the actual Green and Red Lions.

Medicine of the first order is what we have recon­stituted. It is drawn from the blood of the green lion. The energy-providing constituents of this medicine come from
grass, plants and dew gathered in the fields-from nature's green table. It is vegetabilised gold of the first order, also called exoephilline.

Medicine of the second order becomes effective much more quickly and spectacularly. This is doubtless because regeneration takes place from ten to a hundred times
more quickly. It is this that the ancients called the Great Elixir, potable gold, the superior medicine. This is drawn from the blood of the red lion and in this case metallic
elements come much more into play. I shall mention this again later.

It is further said that the medicine of the first order attacks the first crown of gold while that of the second attacks the second crown. It should be added that this in no
way excludes the possibility of a medicine of the third order with its source in the alchemist's powder of projec­tion, attacking the third and last crown of gold. Only very
few texts make mention of this; in general there is absolute silence about the matter.

-----------------

Sir George Ripley

I. Take the green lion without dissolution in vinegar (as sometimes the custom is), put it in a large earthen retort, which can endure the fire, and distil the same way as you distil aqua fortis, putting a receiver under it, and luting the joints well, that it may not respire: --- then distil first with a gentle fire, till you see white fumes appear, then change the receiver, stopping it well, and distil first with a gentle fire, till you see white fumes appear, then change the receiver, stopping it well, and distil with a great fire so, as aqua fortis is distilled, thus continuing twenty-four hours, and if you continue the fire the space of eight days, you will see the receiver always full of white fumes, and so you will have the blood of the green lion, which we call secret water, and acetum acerrimum, by which all bodies are reduced to their first matter, and the body of man preserved from all infirmities. --- This is our fire, burning continually in one form within the glass vessel, and not without. Our dunghill, our aqua vitae, our balneo, our vindemia, our horse-belly, which effects wonderful things in the works of nature, and is the examen of all bodies dissolved, and not dissolved; and is a sharp water, carrying fire in its belly, as a fiery water, for otherwise it would not have the power of dissolving bodies into their first matter. Behold! This is our mercury, our sol and luna, which we use in our work. Then will you find in the bottom of the vessel faeces black as coals, which you must for the space of eight days calcine with a gentle fire, etc. --- Libro Accurt., p. 383.

Joannes Agricola - Treatise on Gold

It is the same with the vinegar of Nature. Nature has already prepared it. We must not make it under any circumstances but only take it out of her vinegar-jar. It is vinegar against Nature, sweet, pleasantly tasting and crystal-clear. Therefore it does not wet the hand and is called the most acid vinegar (acetum acerrimum) by the Philosophers, which are strange words. This vinegar correctly decomposes gold into its Principles, simultaneously extracting its tincture. Our author's process is unable to do this, and it is nothing but a preparation of the Body for turning it into a liquid. It differs very little from the other preparations, because for a quintessence all three Principles must be well purified. Here, the tincture and the Sulphur are indeed purified, but where are the other two, Salt and Mercury? Mercury, which appears in the form of a beautiful clear water, must likewise be brought to the highest degree of purity. The Salt also must be sublimated into a transparency, like diamonds or rubies. Then a quintessence can follow.

All this can be accomplished by the vinegar of Nature alone, without decanting or distilling. The common man will not believe this, because he calcines gold himself, dissolves and extracts it himself, thus believing that he can produce a quintessence. According to our author's instructions, gold must first be turned into a fulminating gold, then mixed with the vitriolized tartar, then cemented for fully 18 weeks. With the vitriolized menstruum the Sulphur is first extracted. This is saying it in a few words, but the work is so long that it becomes extremely tedious. Even so, there is something to it. This process is good enough to work after it, but you have to remember that it does not result in a quintessence, as our author believes. But whoever wants to obtain a fine essence in a short time, may work as follows:

I took the calcined gold and poured on it the secret spirit of vitriol. It dissolved the gold within 24 hours and extracted an essence like a ruby, leaving a white Body like fixed silver. Thus I could obtain the whole preparation and perfection within 8 days, because the real spirit of vitriol has the power of attacking, decomposing, and liquefying gold without violence. No other menstruum can easily do this, except that which I saw at a good friend's, of which I also spoke above. Anyone in possession of it could produce the quintessence of gold - but not everything is revealed to us, nor would it always be good to do so.

...

But so as not to keep you waiting any longer, know that in the soil near silver mines a special brown earth is found between the galleries. When the sun enters the constellation Cancer and at full moon, which happens every year about mid-June, that earth turns beautifully yellow, as if it were covered with the finest gold. It does not last for more than three hours when it disappears again and the gold vanishes in one moment, so to speak. I observed this carefully at Freiberg in Meissen. You have to wait for it attentively, otherwise you will not notice it. You must not only go by the calendar, but if you wish to collect this gilt earth, you must yourself be familiar with astronomy, to know at what time the full moon occurs in the sky in the mountains, so as not to miss this time, be it at night or during the day, it is all the same.

Get as much of this earth as you like, put it in an oak barrel to prevent the spirit from evaporating, half fill the retort with it, add a receiver, then distill the spirit off. It will look wonderful. When it is all out, distill the phlegma over. By rectification you must get the volatile salt from the left-over. The latter must be turned into a viscous substance by means of its fixed salt. Without it, the work is impossible as one must open the other. When the viscous substance is quite pure, distill it seven times through a retort, and you will get a beautiful crystalline spirit with which you can master the gold and get its essence. I do not believe that any writer has revealed as much as I have. Pray to God for good luck! It is plain enough, I believe a child could understand it. If you cannot make gold spiritual with this spirit and dissolve it into its three Principles, you will not do it with any Aqua Regis or salt of ammonia, except with the dry water of the Philosophers - let anyone say what he likes.

...

In the grand-ducal laboratory at Innsbruck in Thieving, I saw that the tincture of the Sun was increased by the tincture of antimony by 1 to 5 parts. After four days in digestion, various colors could be seen, and I was very surprised that during this time a flower appeared in the center, like gold. It did not change, but all around it there was something like a rainbow. Now the laboratory worker removed it from the fire and opened the glass. When the air touched it, all the colors in the center disappeared and only a muddy-red liquid was left. This caused everybody to be startled. We put it back and coagulated it to a red powder. After that, we took it out and put some of it on a red hot silver plate. It was fixed and did not smoke.

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Chemistry of Dew

Post  klprew7772 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:01 am

For those who are interested:

http://ams.confex.com/ams/ASAAQ2005/techprogram/paper_91167.htm

Chemistry of dew at urban and agricultural site

Puja Khare, AER, Agra, U.P., India; and D. Patel, R. Kumar, and J. Behari

Dew samples were collected on the two sites of northern India during 2000 and 2001. Total 42 samples were collected on urban and agricultural sites.Ca, Mg, Na, K, NH4, NO3, SO4, Cl, F, CH3COO and HCOO were ananlysed in the dew samples. Total volume of dew collected was 2% of the rainwater at that year. pH varies between the 5.9 to 6.4 at urban air and 6.0 to 6.9 at agricultural site.The process for the dew formation may be dry deposition on the surfaces, dew formation and incorporation of gaseous species in the dew. Calcium was the dominant species in the sample from both the sites. At urban air, concentrtaion of NO3,SO4,CH3COO were higher than the agricultural site. This is probably due to the incorpaoration of gaseous pollutant like NO2, SO2 and CH3COOH in urban areas. Concentrtaion of NO3, SO4, HCOOH and CH3COOH showed no variation in the two consecutive dew episode in urban site however, at agricultural site concentration of these species along with the crustal component (Ca, Mg) and NH4 lower down. CaSO4, MgSO4, CaNO3, MgNO3,Ammonium nitrate and ammonium sulphate were tha major component of the dew

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:22 am

That's a good piece of information. I knew ammonium nitrate was in there along with a few other components, but I had no idea there were so many.

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my two cents

Post  overfien on Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:38 am

Best time to collect is when Sun would be in Taurus, Gemini and Aries. Dew has said to be feminine while rain to be masculine. Easy way to collect dew is tripod with mirror about 5 inches off the ground. Don’t let it touch the ground, minerals or your hand or it will magnetize to that kingdom of what it touched.

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In regards to dew

Post  deviadah on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:31 pm

I think I have posted this elsewhere, but in alchemy dew is symbolic of divine incarnation or manifestation from Above. Alchemists believed natural dew contained the divine Salt (thoughts of the One Mind) that could transform the Sulfur and Mercury of the First Matter. In many ways, dew represented the Elixir or contents of the cup of God, the Holy Grail. - from the Alchemy Electronic Dictionary

As a sidenote Ningishzidda can also be viewed - in alchemical terms - as the Ambrosia, or Venom or Dew... (to paraphrase m1htr0s).

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  theFool on Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:20 am

What I'm wondering is what the differences are, if any, between dew, rainwater and other forms of water? Would the balance of ions perhaps be different? If it is the case that dew and rainwater are objectively better for the purpose of the ens, I wonder if melted snow could substitute -- gathered just before dawn after or during the snowfall, to keep it in line with the symbolic aspect. Has anybody used melted snow? Is there any difference between it and rainwater, or between either and dew?
My opinion is to use dew water, definately. As for the difference with other waters, I have seen that the dew water contains m-state matter in much higher concentrations than rainwater. I think this m-state matter is somehow connected with the "secret fire" that is mentioned by BeautifulEvil. As for the Ens process, I speculate that when you mix the alcohol in the dew water, those m-state elements are transfered into it and though you have a potent alcoholic tincture.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:23 am

Best time to collect is when Sun would be in Taurus, Gemini and Aries. Dew has said to be feminine while rain to be masculine. Easy way to collect dew is tripod with mirror about 5 inches off the ground. Don’t let it touch the ground, minerals or your hand or it will magnetize to that kingdom of what it touched.
Very good suggestions overfien. Do you happen to know of any other ways to collect dew? I want something a bit more efficient than a mirror and tripod. I'm thinking of a condenser coil and a fan to suck the night/morning air into the apparatus and across the condenser coils. This should cause condensation to occur, and then the droplets will drip into a collecting dish below the condenser coil. If you can do this as close to the ground as possible then it should mimic dew, but I'm not sure if this method would yield an appropriate replacement for dew. Just a wild theory of mine.

My opinion is to use dew water, definately. As for the difference with other waters, I have seen that the dew water contains m-state matter in much higher concentrations than rainwater. I think this m-state matter is somehow connected with the "secret fire" that is mentioned by BeautifulEvil. As for the Ens process, I speculate that when you mix the alcohol in the dew water, those m-state elements are transfered into it and though you have a potent alcoholic tincture.
I've also ran across this a few times too. I've never been able to prove the notion, and it's only been mere theory up to this point. Have you ever precipitated m-state from dew? It's a very interesting experiment to try. Of course, the problem is actually trying to collect the dew!

I think it would be interesting to collect dew from each month of the year, and then "analyze" each sample for the concentration levels of the secret fire. We can prove if this is seasonal or not.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  theFool on Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:32 pm

Have you ever precipitated m-state from dew?
Once, I left some food grade potassium carbonate to absorb moisture by deliquescence. Then I diluted it with water (deionised of course) until the ph was 10.4. Within some hours, a fluffy precipitate formed, very similar to the one you obtain from well known methods performed on sea water (www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm). I suppose it is m-state, but actually never tried to see if it behaves magnetically.
Of course, the problem is actually trying to collect the dew!
I am glad to obtain it easily by delequiem, but if you want it clear, you could take it from an air-conditioner unit. It condenses atmospheric humidity to make the air dry.
I think it would be interesting to collect dew from each month of the year, and then "analyze" each sample for the concentration levels of the secret fire.
Nice idea, but how are we going to detect them? According to the Hudson patent, the m-state, absorbs somewhere between 1400 and 1600 cm-1 (it depends on the element). Does anyone here has access to an Infrared spectrometer? It would clarify a lot of questions!

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:58 pm

I am glad to obtain it easily by delequiem, but if you want it clear, you could take it from an air-conditioner unit. It condenses atmospheric humidity to make the air dry.
Yeah, this is sort of like my condenser coil/fan idea. I have a problem with this though. I don't think this condensed water contains the same secret fire as dew. Dew is much more complex than just condensed water. We need condense water from the plants and ground. This is actually why I mentioned placing the condenser coil as close to the ground as possible. Ideally it should also be on top of some healthy vegetation. In this way we capture the ambient life force from the plants/ground in our philosophical water (i.e. condensed water, water from the air).

Nice idea, but how are we going to detect them? According to the Hudson patent, the m-state, absorbs somewhere between 1400 and 1600 cm-1 (it depends on the element). Does anyone here has access to an Infrared spectrometer? It would clarify a lot of questions!
I was just thinking we could check and compare precipitation volumes. We'd look for the sample with the most precipitation. Something like that I believe.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  theFool on Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:35 pm

I don't think this condensed water contains the same secret fire as dew
I think it is true that the quality of condensed water is lower than this of dew, and not suitable for alchemy (after all it touches the metal of the air-condition). But for chemical works, like isolating m-state, I think it is ok.
I was just thinking we could check and compare precipitation volumes. We'd look for the sample with the most precipitation.
Nice idea, in theory. But we definately need to experiment more on the isolation techniques and gain knowledge before we are able to measure accurately its seasonal variations.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  Jerry on Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:36 pm

theFool wrote: According to the Hudson patent, the m-state, absorbs somewhere between 1400 and 1600 cm-1 (it depends on the element). Does anyone here has access to an Infrared spectrometer? It would clarify a lot of questions!

What makes you think there is any of this so-called "m-state" in dew?
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  BeautifulEvil on Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:05 pm

What makes you think there is any of this so-called "m-state" in dew?
Hehe, that's an interesting question. I'm afraid I cannot say for sure, but I would love to hear what theFool has to say!

Honestly, I'm still not sure I buy into the whole m-state side of alchemy. For me it's still purely theoretical, and I cannot prove it one way or the other.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  theFool on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:44 am

What makes you think there is any of this so-called "m-state" in dew?
Check my answer here: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/dew-rainwater-snow-ice-t396-15.htm#3651
Also, this post could be useful for verification purposes: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/ormus-ormes-m-state-monatomic-transition-metals-t207-30.htm#3542

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  Jerry on Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:21 pm

theFool wrote:
What makes you think there is any of this so-called "m-state" in dew?
Check my answer here: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/dew-rainwater-snow-ice-t396-15.htm#3651
Also, this post could be useful for verification purposes: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/ormus-ormes-m-state-monatomic-transition-metals-t207-30.htm#3542

No, I’m sorry………but looping information around in circles doesn’t answer the question.

I gather from your previous posts that you feel that the presence of “m-state” in various substances (which are actually precious metals in disguise in monatomic form) can be manifested by using various chemical techniques. Of course, the proof of this, is the “claim” that this “m-state” can somehow be recovered into precious metals by some physical process. Somebody once said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.”.

You did say, “I detect the presence of the m-state element by running a magnet under it.”, which I assume to be your detection method because you offer no other.

Then you said in reference to the dew, “I suppose it is m-state, but actually never tried to see if it behaves magnetically.”, but you do seem to be quite confident in your detection method because you said, “…it is definately strange to find magnetic elements in great concentrations in places where they shouldn't be (like grape juice and sea salt)”. I take it that there isn’t any iron in grape juice because the label says: “Iron 0%”.

So the only thing that you base your assumption on of the presence of the so-called “m-state” in dew is, “Within some hours, a fluffy precipitate formed, very similar to the one you obtain from well known methods performed on sea water (www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm).”.

You then made another association by connecting “dew” with the secret fire to “m-state” when you said. “I think it would be interesting to collect dew from each month of the year, and then "analyze" each sample for the concentration levels of the secret fire.”, because I don’t know of any such direct connection.

You further reinforced the idea of “m-state” in dew because of your statement, “Nice idea, but how are we going to detect them?”. How do you know “them” is there?

I think you further muddled the whole idea when you stated, “According to the Hudson patent, the m-state, absorbs somewhere between 1400 and 1600 cm-1 (it depends on the element). Does anyone here has access to an Infrared spectrometer? It would clarify a lot of questions!”. So if “them” isn’t proven to exist and you are basing your assumptions of their existence on a “fluffy precipitate” (which is very common occurrence in chemistry), what makes you think there is any so-called “m-state” in dew to warrant doing any IR work?

I also can’t recall “Hudson” ever using the term “m-state”, so maybe you can clarify that one for me.
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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  theFool on Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:19 pm

I am glad that you ask those questions, it helps to take the matter to some serious discussion, beyond chit-chatting.
Of course, the proof of this, is the “claim” that this “m-state” can somehow be recovered into precious metals by some physical process. Somebody once said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.”
I agree, I have never seen that this recovery is possible, so, there are no extraordinary proofs.
You did say, “I detect the presence of the m-state element by running a magnet under it.”, which I assume to be your detection method because you offer no other.
Yes, this is the strongest proof I have for their existence.
Then you said in reference to the dew, “I suppose it is m-state, but actually never tried to see if it behaves magnetically.”, but you do seem to be quite confident in your detection method because you said, “…it is definately strange to find magnetic elements in great concentrations in places where they shouldn't be (like grape juice and sea salt)”. I take it that there isn’t any iron in grape juice because the label says: “Iron 0%”.
Actually grapes contain iron but in minute quantities. I don't think that this iron (even if it is somehow converted to metallic form, isolated from the other molecules it is bound to) is enough to explain the magnetic behaviour. So yes, sth strange goes on here. It doesn't prove that the m-state theory is correct but hints to it.
So the only thing that you base your assumption on of the presence of the so-called “m-state” in dew is, “Within some hours, a fluffy precipitate formed, very similar to the one you obtain from well known methods performed on sea water (www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm).”
Basically yes. I have used food grade potassium carbonate and deionised water. I wasn't expecting to see any kind of precipitate forming in the solution. However, when the ph got to ~10.5 (after adding the deionised water) and after some hours passed, a fluffy precipitate formed. The whole process resembled a lot the one which is performed on sea water to isolate the supposed m-state elements, so I drew the (weak) assumption that the fluffy precipitate is the same as the one from sea water. I want to add here that I have seen that the precipitate from seawater behaves magnetically also.
You then made another association by connecting “dew” with the secret fire to “m-state” when you said. “I think it would be interesting to collect dew from each month of the year, and then "analyze" each sample for the concentration levels of the secret fire.”, because I don’t know of any such direct connection.
Those are the words of BeautifulEvil, not mine. I feel that the m-state is somehow connected to the secret fire but I have no proof (not either a hint) for this.
You further reinforced the idea of “m-state” in dew because of your statement, “Nice idea, but how are we going to detect them?”. How do you know “them” is there?
The only hint I have for their existence in there is the fluffy precipitate mentioned above.
So if “them” isn’t proven to exist and you are basing your assumptions of their existence on a “fluffy precipitate” (which is very common occurrence in chemistry), what makes you think there is any so-called “m-state” in dew to warrant doing any IR work?
I used food grade carbonate and deionised water. The carbonate was left in open air to gather moisture, then the water was added till the ph got to 10.5. So, there must be sth in the moisture that causes this precipitate to form. Ok, maybe this is not enough to justify IR work, especialy if the IR equipment is not owned by you. Maybe if I try to prove that this precipitate is magnetic? Would this then justify searching the issue further? If there is such a possibility I would be glad to write a more scientific report on the experiment.
You could check also my small website (see my profile), where I have a detailed report on the m-state from grapes experiment. What I expect, is to see people performing experiments, postulate theories and confirm or not the results. I don't like to force my ideas to anyone. You can check by performing the experiment yourself. And yes, I admit that sometimes I come to conclusions pretty fast and maybe proven wrong. After all my nickname is "theFool", what do you expect? Smile (just joking here).
I also can’t recall “Hudson” ever using the term “m-state”, so maybe you can clarify that one for me.
I think I got this term from the www.subtleenergies.com website. It means monoatomic or magnetic elements. It is a substitute for the term ORMEs.

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Re: Dew/Rainwater/Snow/Ice

Post  solomon levi on Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:32 pm

I read somewhere on the internet about getting m-state from dew.
I tried the process and did get a precipitate, but I don't know how to prove
something is m-state.
The process is simply to allow potassium carbonate (or lye) to deliquesce and then
bring the pH down with HCl or vinegar.
This is so simple you can do it yourself and test it to your satisfaction.

People use ORMES and M-state synonymously.
orbitally rearranged MONO-ATOMIC elements. M-state means Monoatomic state.

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