pH swings with Wet Method.

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pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  Tony D. on Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:19 pm

As a newbie making my own manna using the Wet Method I know my process has greatly improved during the course of only 12 batches. I would like to further advance it and have heard mention "pH swings".

I've seen where one experienced alchemist makes his pH swings from 14 to 1 many times.

For the experienced and learned alchemists out there I was wondering two things.

1. How does a pH swing improve the manna?

2. Rather than taking the pH from 14 to 1 many times, what about just doing a small swing from say 8 to about 5.5 many times? If the purpose is to take the m-state from liquid to solid and back and forth, wouldn't this narrow pH range accomplish this for the many elements that precipitate between 6 and 8?

Thanks in advance All,
Tony

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:55 pm

I suppose you're talking about m-state gold when using the term "manna."

1. How does a pH swing improve the manna?
I think it breaks apart the larger molecules into smaller molecules. I've only heard of this being done to produce a well graduated gold chloride or gold hydroxide. So honestly, I'm not sure how it would work with manna or m-state materials.

2. Rather than taking the pH from 14 to 1 many times, what about just doing a small swing from say 8 to about 5.5 many times? If the purpose is to take the m-state from liquid to solid and back and forth, wouldn't this narrow pH range accomplish this for the many elements that precipitate between 6 and 8?
I believe the full pH swing is best. Like I said previously, this is how it's done to make a well graduated gold chloride/hydroxide. The color will change over time to a clear solution if done right I believe. You can produce all the colors of the rainbow with pH swings using gold. This is caused by the varied molecule size refracting the light. However, I must say I don't know how this will work with m-states.

I think it's best to isolate the m-state, try to remove most of the insoluble magnesium/calcium hydroxides, and then give the remaining powder a decent calcination in an inert (helium) atmosphere. This stuff is said to be very energetic, much more than "normal" m-state.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  solomon levi on Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:04 pm

Yes, the many swings are for breaking down metals into smaller clusters of atoms.
In a CRC chemistry book, it will tell you that gold chloride is yellowish whereas gold trichloride is reddish.
The different colors show refraction of different sizes. I've heard gold hydroxide is purplish.
As you swing past neutral, these colors will disappear and then reappear as you approach basic pH of 10.5
and acidic pH.

So a smaller swing won't break it down as much.

If you have exctracted m-state from salt waters, there's no need to break it down any further.
You can't get smaller than m-state if that is what you have. That seems to be the question -
is it truly mono-atomic?

Ideally, you don't want gold chloride or nitrate or hydroxide.
This involves a lengthy process of dissolving the gold in acids and washing and evaporating over and over
like David Hudson shows in his patent. But, once again, that's for metallic gold.

For salt waters, we want to eliminate the magnesium, which we can do by manipulating the pH.
The hydrogen can be annealed off at high temperatures as Beautiful Evil mentioned.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  Tony D. on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:15 pm

Thanks for info:)

"I think it's best to isolate the m-state, try to remove most of the insoluble magnesium/calcium hydroxides, and then give the remaining powder a decent calcination in an inert (helium) atmosphere. This stuff is said to be very energetic, much more than "normal" m-state."

My end product is a liquid and not a powder. Right now I don't have the lab equipment to create an inert atmosphere or helium for that matter to calcinate with. I'm not up to that level yet but working on it.

So far what I've done is replaced the initial distilled water with still mineral water and always include Bokek Dead Sea Salt with other salts. This makes a potent catalyst and has increased my precipitate volume. I'm going to split my next batch of "raw" precipitate in two. I'll wash one in distilled and the other in mineral water to see if there's a difference. I also took your advise Sol and only drop to about 9. I also decided to only wash once after precipitation and once after HCL drop using 1:1 precip. to water ratio to keep the manna salty which is supposed "hold" the m-state better.

In time I will move beyond the basic Wet Method after I master it and my intuition and skill increases.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:49 pm

My end product is a liquid and not a powder. Right now I don't have the lab equipment to create an inert atmosphere or helium for that matter to calcinate with. I'm not up to that level yet but working on it.
I understand. It's not too difficult to do this though. Actually, I have a simple method of using an iron pipe with an inlet and outlet. Pump a slow but steady stream of helium into it, hang this over a light coal fire and regulate the temperature carefully (IR temp meter). Do this for a few hours, and in no time you'll have very high quality m-state (if you performed the initial magnesium/calcium separation).

I also decided to only wash once after precipitation and once after HCL drop using 1:1 precip. to water ratio to keep the manna salty which is supposed "hold" the m-state better.
Yeah, that's what I've heard too. The salt water protects the m-state from being zapped by x-rays. You also leave a lot of the magnesium goodies, which are also very healthy.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  solomon levi on Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:18 pm

You can pour your liquid through a couple coffee filters and get a wet paste,
which then dry in an oven on low (the whole coffee filter with m-state) for a brief time
(don't let the filter catch fire) and then dry the rest of the way just leaving it in a dark place for a couple days.
Then powder it with mortar and pestle. This powder can then be annealed.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:45 pm

You can pour your liquid through a couple coffee filters and get a wet paste ...
I'm willing to bet you'll be losing some m-state if you do this. I would just evaporate the remaining liquid+precipitate (after it's been washed a time or two) to obtain the powder. I think It's really useless to do this before you remove the magnesium/calcium hydroxide impurities - only after they've been (mostly) removed.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  solomon levi on Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:31 pm

Yeah. I forgot to mention, I save the water for consumption. Wink

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  solomon levi on Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:32 pm

I did a little research on gold compounds:

gold chloride is yellow
gold trichloride is claret red
gold trihydroxide is brown
di-gold trioxide is red or brown
tetra-gold octachloride is black

purple of cassius is known to be a gold hydroxide

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  k89 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:49 am

Gold hydroxide can be white (sometimes).

'purple of cassius' is known to be a gold hydroxide

I think 'purple of cassius' is colloidal gold.

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  Tony D. on Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:38 pm

Thanks to All for the suggestions and input :>)

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Re: pH swings with Wet Method.

Post  solomon levi on Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:03 pm

I've read of two gold hydroxides now.
the hydroxide is said to be deep blue, the trihydroxide is said to be brown.
I'm getting this from CRC chemistry handbooks and such.

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