Do you believe?

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Do you believe in a God?

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Do you believe?

Post  deviadah on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:51 pm

I am curious about something.

Are alchemists religious? Do they believe in God?

Of course we can debate What is God and What is Religion, but I am really talking about the more conventional forms like belief in Jesus Christ as your saviour or Mohammed as your Prophet etc.

To keep it more anonymous I've also added a poll.

To again be clear: if you think the invisible force of nature is God then you should answer No!

As I said I am asking more in regards to the conventional forms of belief...

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  solomon levi on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:31 pm

That the Biblical Yahweh existed, by that name and others, I do not doubt.

Do I believe in Yahweh? No. This is not my god.

God for me is the Gnostic Ineffable, yet it manifests as all.
Every atom, every light particle, everything is god.
And that which doesn't possess "thingness" is god.
God is manifest and unmanifest.

Another way I look at it is that god is consciousness and unconsciousness.
I agree with the advaitist view that god/consciousness is the only true subject
and any created thing is an object. So when we believe in our personal "I" as subject,
it's much like the Gnostic demiurgos claiming itself god when it is actually many rungs down on the ladder.
To me, the demiurge, Sophia, Iesous - these are different names for consciousness at different
stages or frequencies/aeons. They are us, now. Not a story of the past.
The same can be, and has been, said about the garden of Eden story and its characters.

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  deviadah on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:36 pm

Gnosticism lies close to my heart...

But I always say that God is in the mirror!

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  BeautifulEvil on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:58 pm

I have views similar to Solomon Levi.

God cannot be defined, the very definition yields a tangible thought, and this thought is only a corruption of the true Light (or eternal Darkness?). God can only be "understood" through conundrums. I think Crowley did a grand job describing this dual or hermaphroditic "energy" in his version of the Vision & The Voice. I suggest reading the first aethyr, that of LIL, and the Crowned & Conquering Child.



Site:http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/l418/aetyr1.html

There has never been such peace, such silence. But these are positive things. Singing praises of things eternal amid the flames of first glory, and every note of every song is a fresh flower in the garland of peace.

This child danceth not, but it is because he is the soul of the two dances, --- the right hand and the left hand, and in him they are one dance, the dance without motion.

There is dew on all the fire. Every drop is the quintessence of the ecstasy of stars.

...

I am the child of all who am the father of all, for from me come forth all things, that I might be. I am the fountain in the snows, and I am the eternal sea. I am the lover, and I am the beloved, and I am the first- fruits of their love. I am the first faint shuddering of the Light, and I am the loom wherein night weaveth her impenetrable veil.

I am the captain of the hosts of eternity; of the swordsmen and the spearmen and the bowmen and the charioteers. I have led the armies of the east against the armies of the west, and the armies of the west against the armies of the east. For I am Peace.

My groves of olive were planted by an harlot, and my horses were bred by a thief. I have trained my vines upon the spears of the Most High, and with my laughter have I slain a thousand men.

With the wine in my cup have I mixed the lightnings, and I have carved my bread with a sharp sword.

With my folly have I undone the wisdom of the Magus, even as with my judgments I have overwhelmed the universe. I have eaten the pomegranate in the House of Wrath, and I have crushed out the blood of my mother between mill-stones to make bread.

There is nothing that I have not trampled beneath my feet. There is nothing that I have not set a garland on my brow. I have wound all things about my waist as a girdle. I have hidden all things in the cave of my heart. I have slain all things because I am Innocence. I have lain with all things because I am Untouched Virginity. I have given birth to all things because I am Death.

Stainless are my lips, for they are redder than the purple of the vine, and of the blood wherewith I am intoxicated. Stainless is my forehead, for it is whiter than the wind and the dew that cooleth it.

I am light, and I am night, and I am that which is beyond them.

I am speech, and I am silence, and I am that which is beyond them.

I am life, and I am death, and I am that which is beyond them.

I am war, and I am peace, and I am that which is beyond them.

I am weakness, and I am strength, and I am that which is beyond them.

Yet by none of these can man reach up to me. Yet by each of them must man reach up to me.

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  solomon levi on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:13 pm

deviadah wrote:Gnosticism lies close to my heart...

But I always say that God is in the mirror!

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It's fun if I take that literally. I've done work with mirrors as "gateways" or
"portals". There's definitely something extraordinary in the mirror.

On the other hand, Toltec wisdom tells us to smash the mirror of self-reflection.
As in advaita, as long as there appear to be two, there is the experience of separation.
Toltecs also encourage us to stop the internal dialogue.
Have you ever asked who is speaking to whom and who is listening?
Are there really two of me? Gurdjjieff's many "I"s come to mind.

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The long Sss

Post  phliosehea on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:47 pm

Are alchemists religious? Do they believe in God?

For me the short answer is yes.

Concerning Jesus/Iesous...well to me he is the same as all of the other 'ouses 'euses...by that I mean Theseus, Odysseus, Perseus, Moses, Zeus, Isis, Osiris, etc... or as a non-proper noun the following: androgynous, caduceus, amorphous, nucleus, aqueous, religious, arduous, ferrous, hideous, igenous etc...In short the path and it's completion, or as Fulcanelli would have it Stibeous from the Greek stibi (path) which was latter associated with stibium...and the reason he says, is the cause for so many who have been wrongly led astray- or those that utilize stibium/antimony for their experiments.


To be a little more clear:
Do I follow them? No, not at the moment...perhaps soon.
Do I believe that Jesus was a real person? No, I do not...
Do I believe Mohamed was a real person? I'm not sure...
Do I believe that salvation comes by way of them? Yes, but it would happen the same way if I followed Odysseus.
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Re: Do you believe?

Post  arcitectus on Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:44 pm

Am I religious? Yes. Dogma and such man made things aside, I think true religion uplifts people regardless of what doctrine you practice. We need to see our similarities, instead of fighting over our differences.

Do I believe in salvation through a messiah, etc? No. One can not work out the deeds and works of another.

Do I believe in God? Yes. I believe the transcendental force is God. We apply name, form and attributes to it in order to identify with it. We make God in our image, a personal God. Ultimately this is a false perception as duality does not exist. We are that which we seek.

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  BeautifulEvil on Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:22 am

Am I religious? Yes. Dogma and such man made things aside, I think true religion uplifts people regardless of what doctrine you practice. We need to see our similarities, instead of fighting over our differences.
I honestly don't believe religion uplifts anybody, it's what we LEARN from "religion."

Our salvation is wisdom and knowledge, not merely words in specific religious books (bible, quran, etc) - it's what we learn from these words. This can be gained merely through self introspection and doesn't require prophets, messiahs, bishops, priests, etc.

arcitectus, this wasn't directed to you, but just a general observation on my part.


Last edited by BeautifulEvil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:14 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : stupid typos)

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  arcitectus on Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:07 am

@BeautifulEvil - No problem. I agree with your statements. What you said is essentially what I was trying to say, my execution could have been better. I will elaborate what I was trying to say.

I believe true religion allows a person to experience wisdom and knowledge. It is not the words in the books, but what the words engender in a person. Some see the stories as simply interesting stories, moral stories, etc and dig not further. While for others it causes a "spark" within them. It causes them to question and dive deeper into themselves and the meanings, and come out with wisdom and knowledge from their experience. The "spark" that is engendered in an individual can really come from anything at anytime, not just religious books or being in a temple. My question is, does it cause us to question things beyond our senses or accepted reality?

As you already said it can be gained through introspection, totally agreed. It has been my general experience that this is not a common function for most people and it needs to be learned in some manner. Thus we have priest, prophets, messiahs, etc, which try to teach the masses at a time and level they can digest. Hopefully the person speaking and the person listening will finally connect creating a "spark" in the listener. I think this is why we have so many stories saying the same things in different ways. Some times it takes multiple repetitions until it finally sinks in.

Do we need them? Ultimately no, we do not need any of it. We are our own salvation. But as I said earlier, most of the general population lack an introspective quality, or need to hear it multiple times in multiple ways. I especially believe that the introspective quality is less in this age of instant gratification. People have to think less as technology does it for us.

I guess it is a matter of semantics. I think we are both generally saying the same things, just in our own way.

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Re: Do you believe?

Post  WCH on Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:48 pm

I don't believe in an external, objectively true creator God who fashioned the universe. I believe that when people refer to "God" they're talking about their super-ego, or some other psychological quality, which they may or may not realise is part of them but which they externalize as an omnipotent (or at least very powerful) force.

Since I have a superego, it'd be reasonable then to say that I do believe in God. Except I don't really find the concept that interesting... I prefer other archetypal concepts, often worshiping, for instance, Dionysus/Pan. The laughing god might not be omnipotent, but he's pretty terrifying while simultaneously giving us wonderful things. Much cooler than some abstract, featureless conglomeration of everything.
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Re: Do you believe?

Post  BeautifulEvil on Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:20 pm

Arcitectus, you did a great job of explaining it in detail. I agree with you 100%.

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