Oil of wine

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Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:39 am

I gave a try on one recipie from the book "Art of Distillations" which describes how to make an oil of wine, and would like to share some results. So, the recipie is this:

"TO MAKE AN OIL OF WINE
Take weak spirit of wine and distill it in a vessel of a long neck. Then pour on this spirit again upon the phlegm, and distill it again. Do this several times and you shall see the oil of the wine swim on the phlegm, which phlegm you must separate from the oil by a tunnel. If this oil be afterward circulated for a month, it will thereby become most odoriferous, and of a singular virtue, and good being both very cordial and balsamical."



I started with the weak spirit of wine (~45% alcohol distilled from wine) and cohobated it with the help of a small pump. The wine spirit started to change color from transparent to milky and after many hours, an iridescent film appeared on surface. Separation of this oil was unsuccessful probably because of its small volume.
Maybe it is some kind of ethyl-ether thing forming from wine or an ingredient contained only in wine. When I try the same operation on artificial alcohol I should know.
But I would like to ask if anyone has messed with this thing. What do you believe this oil is? Some other recipies say to circulate the wine or to separate the oil by distillation. I hope that in this oil is the "life force" of the wine and I am planning to check for the existence of m-state matter if I could isolate enough of it.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:45 am

When I try the same operation on artificial alcohol I should know.
I would also like to see the results from an absolute alcohol run (dried everclear). I suppose it could be some type of ethyl ether forming, or maybe it's an ester. Does it smell? When acetic acid and ethanol are digested together they produce a supposedly semi-sweet smelling oil, and this is probably related to ester formation [ethyl acetate] (it's also likely the same oil mentioned as the end result of this process). Acetic acid is the oxidation product of ethanol. Some acetic acid is always present in wine (depending on many factors, and some wine contains more than others), and likewise SOME ethyl acetate is always found in wine. This would also take place in repeated distillations.

The acidity of the wine will also change in accordance to the amount of acetic acid contained. Can you measure the pH of the phlegm and distillation product for us? We'll try to confirm this!

EDIT: Also wanted to touch bases on the evolutionary changes taking place. The evolutionary product of ethanol is acetic acid (it's not a degradation, but a philosophical graduation). The chemical marriage of ethanol and acetic acid produces a child. This child is not like either of its parents, and its essence is also exalted (at least more so than ethanol and acetic acid).

It's a good solvent too. Smile


Last edited by BeautifulEvil on Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:52 am

Well this was a double post, but I wanted to add something else.

The combination of a vegetable/mineral acid and an alcohol will always yield something interesting. This combination can be accomplished a variety of ways: by heating gently in a closed container (digestion), by repeated distillation, and by circulation (digestion+distillation). Circulation is very interesting, because it combines both of these principles. Circulation is more like our modern refluxing system (reflux column attached to a flask).

I think distillation is the quickest, but also the most crude. Digestion is a good way to accomplish this, but the process is slow in some instances, and we must be weary of the vapors produced so as to not exceed the pressure rating of the flask. Circulation is the best way to accomplish the marriage of two substances, and also to bring about the latent evolutionary changes within matter.

It should be noted that we may need some type of catalyst to start/carry the reaction along in some instances. Regarding catalysts: I've heard good things about gold nanoparticles. Wink

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:19 pm

The evolutionary product of ethanol is acetic acid (it's not a degradation, but a philosophical graduation). The chemical marriage of ethanol and acetic acid produces a child. This child is not like either of its parents, and its essence is also exalted (at least more so than ethanol and acetic acid).
I really like the way you interpret the whole process. I wonder sometimes if we could prove somehow that this product is really exalted and different from store bought ethyl acetate. Or to put it more general, what makes a substance (e.g. salt) philosophical ("alive") and how to distinguish from a "dead" one?
Can you measure the pH of the phlegm and distillation product for us?
Back to the experiment, I measured today the ph (by means of a ph-paper) of the liquid in the flask (phlegm + distillation product mixed) and found it at ~ 4.0ph. Pretty interesting, the theory of acetic acid formation seems to gain ground. However, mention that the measurement took place after one month has passed from the date the experiment was performed. The flask was kept at room temp.
Does it smell?
The smell of the liquid in the flask, had definatelly a sweet overtone which wasn't there before, but the sweet smell didn't cover fully the smell of the distilled wine.
I would also like to see the results from an absolute alcohol run (dried everclear)
I run this experiment by mixing 10ml of 95% alcohol with 10ml of deionised water in order to get close to the consistency of the wine distillate. The ph of this mixture is ~ 6.0ph. Then I started the repeated distillations by the help of the small electric pump. After some time, the liquid started to change color from transparent to white. The iridescent oil was not observed, (probably due to the small volume?). The ph of the end product, was ~ 6.0ph. Hmm, the results are baffling.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:55 pm

I really like the way you interpret the whole process. I wonder sometimes if we could prove somehow that this product is really exalted and different from store bought ethyl acetate. Or to put it more general, what makes a substance (e.g. salt) philosophical ("alive") and how to distinguish from a "dead" one?
This is a question I've often asked myself. I cannot actually determine if, how, or why a certain substance is "alive" as compared to "dead." I normally name these in accordance to the substance and whether or not it comes from a natural, i.e. a philosophical, source. Sometimes our philosophical substances are often a conglomeration of various chemicals/isomers/etc, and It's not actually meant to be a single pure substance. I think this may contribute to the degree of philosophical graduation of a substance.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes it relates to the actual life force, or astral energy, bound within a substance. I'm sure you're aware of this notion though. I cannot actually measure this life force yet, and thus it still remains one of those unknown unknowns. More than likely, it means a number of different things, and we have to determine the true meaning through context interpretation.

I know I didn't really answer your question, but hopefully I've provided some food for thought.

Back to the experiment, I measured today the ph (by means of a ph-paper) of the liquid in the flask (phlegm + distillation product mixed) and found it at ~ 4.0ph. Pretty interesting, the theory of acetic acid formation seems to gain ground. However, mention that the measurement took place after one month has passed from the date the experiment was performed. The flask was kept at room temp.
That's a pretty good confirmation right there. Do you happen to know the pH of the wine you used? The pH should continue to drop as you leave it out to age and oxidize. Basically, the wine will turn sour and create what's called "vinegar wine." Christ was given this vinegar (metaphorical interpretation needed) to drink while on the cross. I think the product of acetic acid and ethanol is very important in alchemy.

The smell of the liquid in the flask, had definatelly a sweet overtone which wasn't there before, but the sweet smell didn't cover fully the smell of the distilled wine.
This sounds like another confirmation, but I'll be conservative and mention that it would be much better to compare this with a larger amount of the ester in question (ethyl acetate).

I run this experiment by mixing 10ml of 95% alcohol with 10ml of deionised water in order to get close to the consistency of the wine distillate. The ph of this mixture is ~ 6.0ph. Then I started the repeated distillations by the help of the small electric pump. After some time, the liquid started to change color from transparent to white. The iridescent oil was not observed, (probably due to the small volume?). The ph of the end product, was ~ 6.0ph. Hmm, the results are baffling.
Ah, good experiment. If you repeat this experiment with some acetic acid added to the reactants then you should begin to notice the oil formation. This may form as an iridescent oil, but I'm not sure. If you continue this then it will definitely start to smell interesting.

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Second experiment

Post  theFool on Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:23 am

Do you happen to know the pH of the wine you used?
I measured the ph of the wine distillate with which I begun the experiment and found it at 4.0, the same as the ph of the end product.
The pH should continue to drop as you leave it out to age and oxidize.
I think this is true for the wine which has low alcohol content. When alcohol is in high concentration, the oxidation doesn't occur.
I still am not sure if this acidity measured in the wine distillate is explained by means of acetic acid. There could be other acidic substances naturally occuring in wine. The definite answer to this would be to run the experiment you propose:
If you repeat this experiment with some acetic acid added to the reactants then you should begin to notice the oil formation
I should calculate the amount of distilled vinegar to be mixed with the 20ml of 50% alcohol in order to get ph 4.0.
If you continue this then it will definitely start to smell interesting.
But I don't feel like running the experiment soon, because the acetic acid vapors are corrosive and my distillation system is leaking. Probably then my nose will be unable to smell anything! (joking here). Oh, why I didn't go to study chemical engineering back then? hehe.

Below, I post two photos of the end product. The first is the one which derived from wine distillate (ph 4.0), the second (more transparent color), came from the 50% ethanol (ph 6.0), as described in previous post.


The difference is more than obvious. The 50% ethanol failed to produce the same results. So the wine distillate contains sth more which makes it acidic also. Another question could be: what makes the end product from transparent to white? I still have doubts that ethyl acetate explains all. There is sth more in the wine distillate compared to 50% ethanol and it is not vinegar. All the times I have thrown some K2CO3 solution in the wine distillate, I never saw a bubble rise. On the contrary, even a single drop of distilled vinegar in 20ml of 50% ethanol, is detected by the bubbles it gives when reacting with K2CO3.

I left for the end the most difficult:
Sometimes our philosophical substances are often a conglomeration of various chemicals/isomers/etc, and It's not actually meant to be a single pure substance. I think this may contribute to the degree of philosophical graduation of a substance.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes it relates to the actual life force, or astral energy, bound within a substance. I'm sure you're aware of this notion though. I cannot actually measure this life force yet, and thus it still remains one of those unknown unknowns.
I know the answer is not to be found soon, but I like to speculate on this. I think it has sth to do with the m-state elements. You probably know that one way to "revivify" a "dead" salt is by deliquescense. Then, by checking for the presence of m-state matter, you can distinguish between the dead and the revivified salt. The whole issue requires its own thread with the accompanying experiments, but I just mention it here for imagination triggering purposes.


Last edited by theFool on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:35 am

Regarding catalysts: I've heard good things about gold nanoparticles.
This gave me an idea to mix some m-state matter into the 50% ethanol and start the distillations again. I post it here in order not to forget to do it because it seems to be a nice, interesting experiment.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:08 pm

I think this is true for the wine which has low alcohol content. When alcohol is in high concentration, the oxidation doesn't occur.
I still am not sure if this acidity measured in the wine distillate is explained by means of acetic acid. There could be other acidic substances naturally occuring in wine. The definite answer to this would be to run the experiment you propose:
Wine does have a relatively low alcohol content though. It ranges from 5%-20% and cannot go any higher unless it's fortified with more alcohol. This is because the yeast that produces the alcohol is also killed off by said alcohol at higher concentrations. I suppose there might be other acidic substances naturally occurring in wine, and these might also initiate ester formations on their own (carboxylic acid + ethanol -> ester). I think the experiment I mentioned is a good way to test this hypothesis.

I should calculate the amount of distilled vinegar to be mixed with the 20ml of 50% alcohol in order to get ph 4.0.
I didn't mention this earlier, but I think 15% alcohol would be more realistic in comparison to the actual alcohol concentration in wine. Then just calculate the amount of acetic acid needed to bring the pH down to 4. It shouldn't be too much.

The difference is more than obvious. The 50% ethanol failed to produce the same results. So the wine distillate contains sth more which makes it acidic also. Another question could be: what makes the end product from transparent to white? I still have doubts that ethyl acetate explains all. There is sth more in the wine distillate compared to 50% ethanol and it is not vinegar. All the times I have thrown some K2CO3 solution in the wine distillate, I never saw a bubble rise. On the contrary, even a single drop of distilled vinegar in 20ml of 50% ethanol, is detected by the bubbles it gives when reacting with K2CO3.
Wait, I think I'm confused. Let me get this straight. The white milky liquid is from the wine distillate, right? The clear is from 50% ethanol, right? I think you I might've misunderstood you somewhere.

Back to the topic at hand though. I honestly have no clue why the wine distillate is white. Does the solution look like suspended particles? Can you filter it with a really fine filter paper? Can you try to add a single drop of vinegar to some wine, and then toss an alkali in it? Something else might be happening to the alkali, and it's not able to react with the acid. If it does bubble, then we can safely assume the wine you're using does not contain any appreciable amount of acetic acid.

I think you should try to experiment with this some more. We can try three different variations of this.

1st: Take a small amount of wine, and then digest for a few weeks at 120F.
2nd: Take a small amount of wine, and add a few ml of acetic acid to the mix. Then digest at the same temp as the other.
3rd: Obtain a mixture of 15-20% ethanol, and add a few ml of acetic acid (maybe the same amount as the previous test). Digest at the same temp.

I know the answer is not to be found soon, but I like to speculate on this. I think it has sth to do with the m-state elements. You probably know that one way to "revivify" a "dead" salt is by deliquescense. Then, by checking for the presence of m-state matter, you can distinguish between the dead and the revivified salt. The whole issue requires its own thread with the accompanying experiments, but I just mention it here for imagination triggering purposes.
Yeah, deliquescence is a good way to revivify a dead salt. The salt become more philosophical with each deliquescence/calcination. The deliquescence actually brings about a chemical change in the salt. I've heard that these salts also draw m-state matter from the surrounding atmosphere/area, but I've not been able to confirm this. However, I DO know that deliquescence actually causes a chemical change to take place (small amounts, increasing with each repetition). I'd like to do a chemical analysis on a salt that's been brought through the deliquescence at least seven times. I think we'll find some interesting results!

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:24 am

Wine does have a relatively low alcohol content though. It ranges from 5%-20% and cannot go any higher unless it's fortified with more alcohol.
I agree with that. However, in my experiment, I used wine distillate, which is wine distilled once. I kept the distillate and threw the phlegh. I suppose that this wine distillate contains about 50% alcohol (it can catch fire). That is why in the second experiment (where I use store bought alcohol) I make a mixture of 50:50 with water in order to come close to the mixture of the first experiment.

Wait, I think I'm confused. Let me get this straight. The white milky liquid is from the wine distillate, right? The clear is from 50% ethanol, right?
Ok, I 'll try to disentangle this.
Experiment one:
Wine distillate is put in the distillation apparatus and left to "circulate". I think this operation comes closely to the meaning of cohobation. After hours, the color of the whole liquid, has changed from transparent to white. You can see a pic of this at the previous post. It is the first test tube, the whiter. Also, an iridescent oil swims at the top, but it is so little that I cannot seperate it.
Experiment two:
Store bought alcohol (95% alcohol) is mixed with water at the rate of 50:50 volume. This is what I call 50% ethanol (ok, its not 50% but comes close). Then it is put into the distillation aparratus to cohobate. After hours, its color is not tranparent, but you cannot say that it is white also. You can see it (and compare with the color of the first experiment) at the second picture of test tube. No oil on top observed.
Can you try to add a single drop of vinegar to some wine, and then toss an alkali in it?
I tried today a series of experiments tossing K2CO3 powder in test tubes with wine distillate, wine distillate + vinegar, store bought alcohol + water +vinegar. All of them produced bubbles. Even the wine distillate alone, produces bubbles at a verry slow rate for long time after the K2CO3 is tossed in. I have never noticed this before because it is not so obvious, you must search for bubbles. Usually, the other mixtures with the vinegar, react more vigorously. So, this means that there is acid in the wine distillate, but in low concentration.

From the ph value (which is 4.0), we have that the molality of the acid is 10^(-4) (I suppose strong acid, which is a very rough approximation).
So, at 10ml of wine distillate, there are at least 10^(-6) moles of acid. If they react fully, they give ~22 microliters of gas. Ok, this is a very small volume, consistent with my observations.
Does the solution look like suspended particles? Can you filter it with a really fine filter paper?
It seems to be homogenous, but no, I haven't tried filtering. Maybe a scattering or not of a light beam can help to this question. I 'll post on this when I try it.
I think you should try to experiment with this some more.
A lot of experiments on this issue are running right now. I 'll keep you updated if sth interesting happens.

The main reason for which I 'm after this oil, is because I have found magnetic m-state matter in grape juice in some previous experiments. So, I suppose that this oil (which is stated to be the "spirit" of wine in the alchemical texts) is highly valued and contains the m-state of wine highly concentrated.

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magnetic m-state matter in grape

Post  horticult on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:40 am

Hi, could you please tell some details about that magnetic m-state matter in grape experiment? I tried a similar one according to NDC, but did not get anything magnetic, so I am stuck here.
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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:34 am

Hi, could you please tell some details about that magnetic m-state matter in grape experiment? I tried a similar one according to NDC, but did not get anything magnetic, so I am stuck here.
The possible mistake is that you didn't raise the fire at the final product enough, check also my post here: http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/practical-alchemy-f4/ormus-ormes-m-state-monatomic-transition-metals-t207-30.htm#3542

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  Field on Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:31 am

1st: Take a small amount of wine, and then digest for a few weeks at 120F.

BE, where did you get this figure from?

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:06 pm

Post Deleted
(I misunderstood previous post)


Last edited by theFool on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misunderstood previous post)

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:29 pm

1st: Take a small amount of wine, and then digest for a few weeks at 120F.

BE, where did you get this figure from?
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. If you're referring to "a few weeks at 120F" then I have to admit I pulled it out of nowhere. It's a common digestion temperature (along with 98F).

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:03 am

I think digesting the wine first will turn it to vinegar.


Last edited by theFool on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misunderstanding previous post)

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  Salazius on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:51 am

Don't forget sulfites in wine, digesting it with sulfites into it, will do nothing. It won't wake up the process of fermentation.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  Field on Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:33 pm

BE,

common digestion temperature according to whom?

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:05 pm

The whole alchemy community? What are you trying to imply here? Rolling Eyes

If you're trying to imply what I think you're trying to imply, then you can take it else where. I'm tired of it, and if this is the case then you can consider this a second warning.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  Field on Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:00 am

The whole alchemy community huh? Please site a reference. Otherwise we know where you got your information in which case you refuse to appreciate, acknowledge, or give credit for it. So site a reference or just be somebody who copies other peoples work without saying it.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  phliosehea on Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:12 am

Perhaps B.E. remembers it from Bacstrom: Rosicrucian Aphorisms and Process "...so as to show a degree of heat from 120 to 140 or 150 degrees by Fahrenheit's thermometer. The greatest heat is in the middle, where it is generally from 140 to 150 degrees: less heat is round the staves where it varies from 90 to 100 and from that to 120 degrees."

...or from Tripied : du Vitriol Philosophique 1898:
...Distillons ce sel après l'avoir toutefois évaporé à siccité et transformé en une masse lamellaire (terre foliée de tartre des anciens), chauffons jusqu'au rouge sombre, nous obtenons un liquide rouge noirâtre qui, rectifié pour le séparer des produits impurs et empyreumatiques, nous donne l'acétone ou l'esprit du corps et l'huile ou âme dont les portions les plus légères passant entre 120° et 150°, ont déjà occupé les chimistes sous le nom de dumasine; esprit et huile qu'on aura parfaitement purs en les combinant avec les bi-sulfites alcalins.

...or from Dr.Christian August Becker 1867:
Das ganze Destillat wurde mehre Wochen in der Wärme des Pferdemists (30°) in Digestion gehalten, wobei sich nachgerade das Oel, die Quintessenz, auf der Oberfläche absetzte und den grössten Wohlgeruch verbreitete. Dies Oel ist ein doppeltes, das eine destillat nach Fittig bei 90°, das Andre, das Dumasin bei 120°. Diese beiden Oele bilden den Kern des Heilmittels, das Präparat ist also ein Acetonium oleosum, und muss sprach richtig
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Re: Oil of wine

Post  BeautifulEvil on Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:47 pm

Field, I do not need to post a reference for such a thing. It's well known by alchemists that 120F is one of the digestion temperatures. I'm surprised you asked such a thing. I assume you know it, but you're wanting to give me a hard time. I believe you're implying that I "stole" this from NDC. Of course, this notion is pure nonsense.

I'd appreciate it if you stop this pointless battle. I will win in the end, and you can be damn sure. I wield the lovely ban hammer. Tongue

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Perhaps B.E. remembers it from Bacstrom: Rosicrucian Aphorisms and Process "...so as to show a degree of heat from 120 to 140 or 150 degrees by Fahrenheit's thermometer. The greatest heat is in the middle, where it is generally from 140 to 150 degrees: less heat is round the staves where it varies from 90 to 100 and from that to 120 degrees."

Thank you for the reference phliosehea, but you didn't have to do such a thing. Field knows this, but he just wanted to give me a hard time.

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Re: Oil of wine

Post  theFool on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:43 pm

Some updates:

I finally managed to isolate sth that has interesting properties. I put wine alcohol (almost 95% pure, rectified) in the digestor for at least a month (I forgot it there). I took a portion of it and put it on fire. An oily substance was left behind. It didn't burn. I thought it was water and had a great viscosity because of sth dissolved in it. Then, I tried to distill it by strong fire. Suddenly, all of it converted to a white fog which wasn't easy to condense. In fact, I lost it all in the air, it passed through the distillation arm without condensing!
Hmm, guys, what could this be? We have said at previous posts that ethyl acetate is expected to be produced by those methods. How can I check for its existence in my alcohol? Any test ideas? I have some of this alcohol left and want to use it wisely... Smile

theFool
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