Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:27 pm

I have a few questions I would like our members to debate. These are questions I've often asked myself, and it leads to an interesting conclusion.

1. Must we use philosophical substances to produce the Philosopher's Stone?
2. Can we bypass the use of philosophical substances, by using common substances, to produce the Philosopher's Stone?
3. What makes a substance philosophical, and is there a way to measure the life force of a substance?


Last edited by BeautifulEvil on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
avatar
BeautifulEvil
Occultum
Occultum

Number of posts : 754
Age : 30
Registration date : 2007-10-10

View user profile http://www.englishgematria.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Joshewon Brinobi on Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:50 pm

I have seen people use kirlian technology to take pictures and be able to view life force in a person or object.
I actually thought of doing this for my seed business. To be able to see if seeds we were buying in bulk would still have life force or if they sat too long and the life force left.

Hmm. Then again could the life force be put back into something?

I know that some will be angry to think of a stone being made from chemicals with a scientific mindset and background rather than the mystical.

To me there has to be a way to explain everything on some level or another. Though i know not everyone thinks like that. And believe me i LOVE the Mystical-Magical things in life that we can't explain.

Joshewon Brinobi
Visita
Visita

Number of posts : 8
Registration date : 2008-12-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  BeautifulEvil on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:01 pm

I have seen people use kirlian technology to take pictures and be able to view life force in a person or object.
Kirlian photography would be an interesting avenue to pursue in order to take a snapshot of an object/substances life force.

Hmm. Then again could the life force be put back into something?
From what I understand, a dead substance can be rejuvenated, but is it worth it? Will this re-animated substance be any better than a philosophical substance from nature?

I know that some will be angry to think of a stone being made from chemicals with a scientific mindset and background rather than the mystical.

To me there has to be a way to explain everything on some level or another. Though i know not everyone thinks like that. And believe me i LOVE the Mystical-Magical things in life that we can't explain.
I've encountered this too, but I don't think they're angry. They're more likely following the words of our former alchemical masters who above all else thought archemy was a scourge. Who knows, they might even have first hand experience of this issue!

However, I'm from the same mindset as you, and I do believe it could be possible to produce the stone through non-philosophical substances. Now don't get me wrong, I embrace the mystical, but I would much rather exhaust all reasonable semi-scientific notions/explanations before I look to the mystical for answers.

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
avatar
BeautifulEvil
Occultum
Occultum

Number of posts : 754
Age : 30
Registration date : 2007-10-10

View user profile http://www.englishgematria.com

Back to top Go down

Philosophical vs. Unphilosophical

Post  raedotted on Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:37 am

Hello Everyone,

Normally, one wouldn't attempt to put a dead plant in dirt and expect it to grow (depending on the plant.) So why is it any different in Alchemy? The Philosopher's Stone leads to the spiritual and physical regeneration of the alchemist. Paracelsus said, "You will transmute nothing if you have not first transmuted yourself." Transmuting yourself doesn't merely involve meditating and inner work. It involves the ingestion of alchemically prepared substances which contain invisible subtle forces, i.e. life force and subtle astrological energies. These energies are released into us in a more noble form through the elixirs and medicines. Starting with a dead body in alchemy, which is a material that was not prepared according to the philosophy of alchemy, is senseless. Unless it is 'revivified' according to Art, it is absolutely useless.

An example of consideration in this area would be in the metallic kingdom. If one uses the Kerkring Menstruum to extract the Sulphur of a metal, and the metal is not living (i.e. smelted) it will not be alchemical. However, if one makes a Urine Alkahest and uses that as the Menstruum with a 'dead' (smelted) metal, the Alkahest lends its life to the metal, thus revivifying it. The reason is that the Kerkring Menstruum is prepared with a commercial 'dead' Sal Ammoniac, while the Urine Alkahest is prepared with living philosophical Sal Ammoniac. It's Philosophical because you pee the Sal Ammoniac, so it's from a living source and is therefore still alive. This is according to the basic philosophy of Alchemy.

Another instance is in preparing a metal stone i.e. a lead stone. Any metallic salt will do in this instance, even a 'dead' one bought from a chemistry store, because it is Ďrevivifiedí by the Philosophical Mercury and Philosophical Sulphur.

So it is important to understand the philosophy and practice of Alchemy, in order to know when it is appropriate to use dead bodies, and when it is necessary to use living materials. Otherwise you waste time, energy, and money for nothing and get frustration in return.

There is a major reason why the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone isn't explained in exact detail. It is the same reason that the knowledge of its preparation cannot be extracted by torture nor even simply told to another. No matter how skilled and experienced a person is in alchemy, one cannot explain to another the exact method for producing the Philosopher's Stone. A good example of this was when Alexander Seton explained to Michael Sendivogius before Alexander's death that he could not alas teach Michael how to confect the stone. The reason for that is that one must have an extremely developed intuitive sense and intellect to perform the operations. How much material you start with, and how long it should remain at what temperature, is conducive to many illogical factors. The main reason for this is that every starting material that comes from the earth is slightly different in it's content and purity. It would be impossible to explain to another person the precise, exact methods involved to perform the operations necessary to confect the Philosopher's Stone. The reason why some adepts could whiten the Philosopher's Stone in one hour (i.e. Maria the Prophetess) is because they had developed a very strong intuitive intellect, through the use of powerful consumable talismans (tinctures, elixirs etc) and other medicines. It wasn't because they had some secret text, (although many things can be learned from reading.) Study and prayer is useful and necessary for maintaining a sacred attitude towards the operations.

As I mentioned before - separating out the physical operations from the subtle, interior connections reduces alchemy to common chemistry.

-Rae


Last edited by raedotted on Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarifications and proofing)

raedotted
Visita
Visita

Number of posts : 6
Registration date : 2008-12-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:27 pm

Must we use philosophical substances to produce the Philosopher's Stone?

Hello BE; no doubt about it. Otherwise it would be simply chemistry. But any substance to become philosophical, needs a pre-purification, within the laws alchemical.
Remember that nature creates the materials but the art purifies and provides the best way to make them evolve
faster.
What it is alchemy but the sublimation and the sharpening of matter?
Another definition of alchemy is: The technique of purifying a terrestrial substance in such a way that is able to get inside it's a bit of the spirit realm. This is what makes philosophical, IMO.

On the other hand, I think the only way to measure the life force of a substance is just making it philosophical and noting the reactions of their sick relatives.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:11 pm

pierre wrote:[i]What it is alchemy but the sublimation and the sharpening of matter?
Another definition of alchemy is: The technique of purifying a terrestrial substance in such a way that is able to get inside it's a bit of the spirit realm. This is what makes philosophical, IMO.

Hi Pierre,

What do you think is the difference between an Alchemical sublimation process and the Chemistís sublimation process? If we do a chemical analysis on the products, would we see a difference?

Thanks,
Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:11 am

Ilen A. Cluf wrote:What do you think is the difference between an Alchemical sublimation process and the Chemistís sublimation process?
The difference is that the alchemical sublimation is the technique of purifying or make sublime a particular subject. It is not the operation that describes the chemistry: The adhesion of a substance to the walls of the glass.


Ilen A. Cluf wrote:If we do a chemical analysis on the products, would we see a difference?
Probably, depending on the substance used.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:07 am

pierre wrote:
Illen A. Cluf wrote:
Hi Pierre,

What do you think is the difference between an Alchemical sublimation process and the Chemistís sublimation process?

The difference is that the alchemical sublimation is the technique of purifying or make sublime a particular subject. It is not the operation that describes the chemistry: The adhesion of a substance to the walls of the glass.


Ilen A. Cluf wrote:If we do a chemical analysis on the products, would we see a difference?

Probably, depending on the substance used.


Fulcanelli seems to imply that the philosophical sublimation is somehow different than the ordinary sublimation of the chemists. Here, in the quote below (from Page 110 of his Le Mystere, he describes the process of the short way. Notice that here a crucible is used, and not a glass vase. One can understand how a matter can be sublimated in a glass vase where it can stick to the sides of the vessel, but how can sublimation occur in an open crucible unless Fulcanelli is using the term "philosophical sublimation" to mean something else?

This shortened way, which is, however, covered by a thick veil,
has been called by the Wise the Regime of Saturn. The boiling of
the Work, instead of necessitating the use of a glass vase, requires
only the help of a simple crucible. 'I will stir up your body in an
earthenware vase, in which I will inter it', writes a famous author
who says again further on: 'Make a fire in your glass, that is to say
in the earth which holds it enclosed. This brief method, about which
we have freely instructed you, seems to me to be the shorter way
and the true philosophical sublimation, in order to arrive at the perfection
of this difficult task."This could be the explanation of the
basic maxim of our Science: 'One single vessel, one single matter,
one single furnace.'


Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:03 am

Illen A. Cluf wrote:One can understand how a matter can be sublimated in a glass vase where it can stick to the sides of the vessel, but how can sublimation occur in an open crucible unless Fulcanelli is using the term "philosophical sublimation" to mean something else?

Yes; it means something else ...
Remember that the philosophic sublimation is very different from the chemical sublimation.
We need to purify, spiritualize, sharpen, to raise the vibrations of the matter. So sublimate ...
In the dry path (Crucible) and the wet path (glass vase) will use different containers to each path.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:46 pm

pierre wrote:Yes; it means something else ...
Remember that the philosophic sublimation is very different from the chemical sublimation.
We need to purify, spiritualize, sharpen, to raise the vibrations of the matter. So sublimate ...
In the dry path (Crucible) and the wet path (glass vase) will use different containers to each path.


But how would you "catch" the sublimate when using an open crucible?

Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:35 am

You can not, because there is no substance sublimated. It's just a concept to describe the gradual subject's purification. Sublimation alchemical is not a chemical operation but a painstaking process as the work itself ...

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:44 am

pierre wrote:
Illen A. Cluf wrote:But how would you "catch" the sublimate when using an open crucible?

You can not, because there is no substance sublimated. It's just a concept to describe the gradual subject's purification. Sublimation alchemical is not a chemical operation but a painstaking process as the work itself ...

A very misleading term. Wouldn't "calcination" have been a more proper term? "Sublimation" implies that it is important to retrieve the sublimate, whereas if it is heated in a crucible, the sublimate disapears into the air.

Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:28 pm

IIIen, remember that all the operations described in detail by the old masters are, but false, misleading.

How could you do a chemical sublimacion in a open Crucible? That is proof that the our forefathers speak metaphorically.

Sublimation, distillation, calcination, dissolution ..., etc, are no more than a single operation: solve et coagula.

Pierre

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:00 am

pierre wrote:IIIen, remember that all the operations described in detail by the old masters are, but false, misleading.

How could you do a chemical sublimacion in a open Crucible? That is proof that the our forefathers speak metaphorically.

Sublimation, distillation, calcination, dissolution ..., etc, are no more than a single operation: solve et coagula.


Pierre

Illen

Hi Pierre,

Merry Christmas!

Thank you for the verification. The old masters certainly weren't very generous in their terminology, were they :-)

Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  pierre on Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:55 am

Illen A. Cluf wrote:
pierre wrote:IIIen, remember that all the operations described in detail by the old masters are, but false, misleading.

How could you do a chemical sublimacion in a open Crucible? That is proof that the our forefathers speak metaphorically.

Sublimation, distillation, calcination, dissolution ..., etc, are no more than a single operation: solve et coagula.


Pierre

Illen

Hi Pierre,

Merry Christmas!

Thank you for the verification. The old masters certainly weren't very generous in their terminology, were they :-)

Illen


Hi IIIen, Thanks. The same for you.
The old masters under a veil of sincerity just told us of the truth 50% and of that 50% truth, the half was a lie.
That is one reason why alchemy is the study of a lifetime.

pierre
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 54
Registration date : 2008-12-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:41 pm

pierre wrote:The old masters under a veil of sincerity just told us of the truth 50% and of that 50% truth, the half was a lie.
That is one reason why alchemy is the study of a lifetime.

So true, but in my case, I may only have a decade or two to sort out all the lies.

Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  solomon levi on Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:09 pm

I'm quite certain that a tingeing stone can be made spagyrically.
I don't think all those authors that wrote plainly could be wrong or false -
For example, Glauber and Sir Kenelm Digby give several chemical recipes for the Philosophers' Stone
that were supposedly attained by themselves or someone they knew or some ancient author.

Of course I can't answer for certain until I do it myself or witness someone else, but I don't
see any reason why not. Chemists have manipulated electrons for "transmutations" without
considering if the metals were living or dead.

I think the true alchemists felt it important to stress the natural origin of the first matter and that it is
given by god and available to rich and poor alike. It's important to wonder at these miracles of nature.
Spagyrics sort of side-steps that and gives the awe to man, and there were and are those who feel it is
important not to exalt the self. I think it is/was these efforts that incline some to insist on purity.
It is a wonder that this thing is sought by many and found by but a few - this thing that is everywhere
and most do not know it. There is a reason for that - regardless of whether the alchemists write
cryptically or plainly.

solomon levi
Rectificando
Rectificando

Number of posts : 262
Registration date : 2008-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  phliosehea on Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:49 pm

Intent is a hard fish to catch.
avatar
phliosehea
Rectificando
Rectificando

Number of posts : 130
Registration date : 2008-08-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Illen A. Cluf on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:26 am

solomon levi wrote:I'm quite certain that a tingeing stone can be made spagyrically.

solomon levi wrote:Of course I can't answer for certain until I do it myself or witness someone else,

That's the whole point. Nobody can be certain of what any of the old adepts actually meant until one has produced the Stone him/herself. Nothing can be taken literally, and nothing can be taken as the truth, except perhaps in their philosophical sections where they talked about the importance of observing nature.

solomon levi wrote:It is a wonder that this thing is sought by many and found by but a few - this thing that is everywhere and most do not know it. There is a reason for that - regardless of whether the alchemists write cryptically or plainly.

I agree. Whether or not we ever attain to the Stone, the journey itself can be filled with a considerable amount of new knowledge and understandings.

Illen
avatar
Illen A. Cluf
Interiora
Interiora

Number of posts : 36
Registration date : 2008-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Alchemy, Chemistry, and Acquiring the Philosopher's Stone

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum