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Hello

Post  arcitectus on Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:56 am

I'm new here, just wanted to drop a line to everyone and say hey. Hey. Smile

I recently acquired "The Experience of Eternity", by Jean Dubuis and the Philosophers of Nature (PoN) course work on alchemy, etc. published by Triad Publishing. Has anyone read this material? What do you think of it?

I'm going to start reading through it and doing the "assignments", posting reviews and thoughts, lessons learned, etc on a site I'm setting up soon and here for those that are interested.

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Re: Hello

Post  WCH on Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:51 am

I'm not familiar with it, but my mind recoils at the thought of alchemy as part of any kind of course or involving any kind of assignments, except those that you make for yourself.

Whether the particular teachings are worthwhile I have no idea, but even if they are as good as they could be, I would still despise them on principle.

The Work is for you to discover yourself. It must be your Will, and you must consciously choose every step of the process yourself. This is why the great alchemists hid their truths; all you can get from reading a book is a glimpse of part of what needs to be done, and to get even that you must prove both your dedication and your ability through decoding it.

It is not enough to hear the answer; you must know the answer, having discovered it for yourself. This is the essence of Gnosticism, of which alchemy is merely one facet.
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RE: Hello

Post  arcitectus on Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:54 pm

There is a lot of good information on Jean Dubuis and the Philosophers of Nature (PoN) on various reputable sites. Here is some further information on Jean if you're curious.

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/dubuis_inter.html

As for the material being laid out in courses this is done to provide a structure and organization for those learning. As you may know from your own experience the endeavors of alchemy can be very daunting. As for the "assignments", I simply stated it that way to suggest or say that I would post information / feedback about the various experiments done so that maybe others would be able to benefit and learn from them as well.

...if they are as good as they could be, I would still despise them on principle.
This is contempt prior to investigation, I would ask that you at least take a look at the available information before making a judgment and not blindly passing up an opportunity to learn.

If you would like further information on the course, or further information on Triad Publishing, you can visit them at http://www.triad-publishing.com/

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Re: Hello

Post  phliosehea on Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:46 pm

WCH wrote:I'm not familiar with it, but my mind recoils at the thought of alchemy as part of any kind of course or involving any kind of assignments, except those that you make for yourself.

Whether the particular teachings are worthwhile I have no idea, but even if they are as good as they could be, I would still despise them on principle.

The Work is for you to discover yourself. It must be your Will, and you must consciously choose every step of the process yourself. This is why the great alchemists hid their truths; all you can get from reading a book is a glimpse of part of what needs to be done, and to get even that you must prove both your dedication and your ability through decoding it.

It is not enough to hear the answer; you must know the answer, having discovered it for yourself. This is the essence of Gnosticism, of which alchemy is merely one facet.

Bravo, now that is an excellent response WCH. Arcitectus, it is excellent that you have decided to study alchemy...many have worked through the Pon courses, Flamel college, or learned techniques from Rubellus Petrinus, Frater Albertus, and others. While these courses/people are very familiar with alchemy; there are some of us who think that something is fundamentally missing from their works. It is a difficult art to grasp, few ever understand it, if you believe you will find an understanding of the art in their works then continue to look there. But you would be one of many who follow their way...which has never shown results that match up to the historic record of alchemy. Before you delve too deeply into their courses, look around and ask others who have already gone through them. See what they have to say about it...make your own conclusions, cut your own path- find your own salt, sulphur, and mercury...not theirs. And above all, good luck.
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Re: Hello

Post  arcitectus on Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:51 pm

I'm aware of the difficulties of studying alchemy as I have already stated,
...the endeavors of alchemy can be very daunting.
To say that alchemy is a difficult subject matter is an understatement. I'm very aware of this.

philosehea:
Before you delve too deeply into their courses, look around and ask others who have already gone through them. See what they have to say about it...
As I have already previously asked.
Has anyone read this material? What do you think of it?
philosehea:
...cut your own path- find your own salt, sulphur, and mercury...not theirs. And above all, good luck.
Until I have some education on the subject it would be very difficult to do so. I have to have some education before I can extrapolate / relate materials learned and make it my own and thus have my own experience.

Now, don't get me wrong or misunderstand me, I greatly appreciate any and all help. So far I'm being told to ask questions that I have previously asked and getting replies from someone that has not heard of or read the material, but yet negates it without prior knowledge or investigation of the subject at hand.

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Re: Hello

Post  BeautifulEvil on Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:39 pm

Hi and welcome to the board!

Excuse the generic welcome comment, but it's all I could muster tonight. About the courses: as the others have stated, they're useful in the sense that through them you may better grasp our art, but they are merely a means to an end, and not an end at all. Many have labored before you, most have not succeeded in the making of the true Stone, but there are instances of rare souls finding the true means to this very special object of great reverence. Regardless, I must agree with the two other posters in this thread: WCH, and philosehea.

Above all else, be humble!

_________________

Garden of the world near the new city, In the path of the hollow mountains:
It will be seized and plunged into the Tub, Forced to drink waters poisoned by sulfur.
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Re: Hello

Post  phliosehea on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:56 pm

I understand where you're coming from...it's just that the beginning, in my mind, is perhaps the most important time when approaching
alchemy from its theoretical (θεός-theos) approach. I know I am not saying anything you're most likely not aware of...but you can either choose to look at original treatises concerning the art (which would include works from: Paracelsus, Philalethes, Michal Maier, Sendivogius, Trevisan, Flamel, Beuther, Jean d'Espagnet, Ripley, Valentine etc...) Or you can look at courses that interpret these works and have a less then proven track record. Is it because the original writings are flawed, or because the interpretation is flawed...I believe it's the later. Others have approached it in the way you are going about it, like Rubellus Petrinus who readily admits his lifelong search has met with few successes concerning the great work. However he follows these treatises like those courses, that being to the letter and not the intent (or rather interpretation). Understand what a metaphor is, understand what an allegory is...because these are not cookbooks.

Alchemy Journal (interview of RP) http://www.alchemylab.com/AJ6-3.htm
You stated on your web site that you have not finished the Great Alchemical Work. Do you believe you will complete it?

Frankly speaking I donít know. I worked deeply in several alchemical paths with the suitable raw matters and the result was not what the authors of books claim. Why? I donít know. Some people tell me that I take the texts to the letter and therefore the results arenít right but when I read what they wrote in the forums I see that they donít know more than me. Some are great chemists (alchemists) but I donít see from them any result about the Great Work. After many years of work on alchemy, some times working with dangerous matters like ammonium nitrate, etc, Iím convinced that the secret is the ďAlkahestĒ or the universal dissolvent. I tried making it following Van Helmont, but the result wasnít what he claims in his text and I worked with suitable raw matters and suitable glassware. I think, and I said it sometimes in several forums, that the first matter will be a simple one that we can find in any place like iron clay. But the main secret will be always the dissolvent or the ďAlkahest.Ē


Last edited by phliosehea on Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Hello

Post  WCH on Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:16 am

arcitectus wrote:As for the material being laid out in courses this is done to provide a structure and organization for those learning. As you may know from your own experience the endeavors of alchemy can be very daunting. As for the "assignments", I simply stated it that way to suggest or say that I would post information / feedback about the various experiments done so that maybe others would be able to benefit and learn from them as well.
It's supposed to be daunting. The whole point of any Gnostic system is that you only make progress after investing a lot of time and effort... it is, in fact, the time and effort which are the whole point. Anything which makes it easier just gets in the way. If the difficulty scares some people off... great! If you want to be an alchemist, BE an alchemist.

In fact... I'll save you some effort. I want you to read a single book -- not anyone's interpretation, but the book itself. The book is The Hermetic Museum; it's a collection of 22 tracts all about how to make the Philosophic Gold, by different authors. It was compiled in Latin hundreds of years ago, translated into English in 1893; I'm lucky enough to go to a university that has a 115 year old copy of it, so I have the luxury of holding it in my hands and reading it myself. If you can't find a physical one, it's available online: http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/hermmuse/index.htm

Whatever wealth of knowledge this PoN thing has, I guarantee you will gain more insight from simply reading yourself. I recommend the Hermetic Museum because it has 22 different explanations of the same process, and so while each may be cryptic, once you have read them all, chances are you will have begun to understand more fully. If that's too daunting, try the Fulcanelli path... The Mystery of Cathedrals and Dwellings of the Philosophers are both jammed full of insights... and the originals are in French, which it's more likely you can read than the Latin of the Hermetic Museum.

In any case, read. Not secondary sources, not interpretations, but the originals. There are many, many primary sources to pick from... that's the daunting part! Choosing which to read! That's why I've recommended you two options, rather than simply list the dozens there are. The two books of Fulcanelli are all you need. The Hermetic Museum is all you need. One does not require the other, neither requires any but itself. Pick one and read it. Then read it again, and a third time. Fill a book with notes of correspondences, sigils, diagrams, mad ideas... don't be afraid to be wrong, just write down everything you think even could possibly provide an insight into the true meaning.
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Re: Hello

Post  arcitectus on Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:28 am

@phliosehea - Thank you for your reply it is appreciated. I have a personal background in other studies and have first hand experience living in a traditional, non-American, yoga ashram for about a year. I completely understand and agree with you about metaphor and allegory.

The Indian yogis of the past always spoke in a metaphoric, allegorical, twilight language as well. It took me a long time to sift through this and understand what they were talking about when and the subtleties of when they switched gears. From this I developed an interest in the Indian siddhas(masters), and Indian alchemy, which over time as brought me to western alchemy.

@everyone - Thanks for the information and the help. Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot or created any misunderstandings.

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Re: Hello

Post  WCH on Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:32 am

arcitectus wrote:@everyone - Thanks for the information and the help. Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot or created any misunderstandings.

Arcitectus
Not at all. I apologize if I offended you at all by attacking the course you're involved in -- I meant nothing personal by it. On the contrary, I'm simply arguing that you would be better served by doing the research independently... although I admit that I'm biased, as this has been my approach. I also admit that I'm a novice, so I can hardly tell you from experience what the end results will be... merely what my knowledge of Hermeticism indicates the best results should come from.

Best of luck, please let us know if you find out anything interesting! The more activity here the better... I learn better when I have other novices with whom to trade notes.
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Re: Hello

Post  phliosehea on Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:41 am

The stories of Indra are wonderfully allegorical and naturally pertain to alchemy...and the Samudra Manthan is a truly brilliant piece on the white phase of the work...all the way down to the white cow- which I believe signifies the month the work traditionally begins in (Taurus). And naturally it correlates quite well to the Greek story of Io and Zeus. Good luck!
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Re: Hello

Post  solomon levi on Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:04 am

Greetings!

The courses aren't going to hurt anyone. What will hurt is closing the mind.
Just because you take a course doesn't mean you close your mind.
A course would offer lots of useful info and experience.
Do any courses claim to be the "whole absolute"?
I haven't seen any that claim this.
I haven't seen any course that promises the Philosophers' stone.

Personally, I think you guys are over-critical/judgemental and too personally involved in your opinions.
If someone is led to a course, let them alone. Do you know better than spirit?
Why should we even have opinions about what anyone else does?

I'm with arcitectus on this one.
You have to take the course before you can judge it.

And I'm also 100% for Gnostic knowingness and being your own authority.
But that's not something you can just tell someone to do instead of taking a course.
Of the many "called", only few are "chosen".
A gnostic knows that you can't instruct someone with words; you have to initiate them.
Taking a course will be some people's initiation.

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Re: Hello

Post  phliosehea on Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:12 pm

Well, he was asking for our opinion...so naturally he received an opinionated response. It could be debated whether or not these courses offer useful information, especially when you build a fundamental framework upon them. I know these courses do not claim or promise the philosophers stone...however they do imply that their way might lead to it. If I have an extreme aversion to these courses it is only because numerous treatises from the historic philosophers/sages/alchemist imply that no great expense is needed for glassware, furnaces, ores, chemicals, or any other contraptions. I believe this art is the true way to God, now why would God have us to dig around in the muck looking for some secret substance, why would we need to boil, smelt, dissolve, molest a variety of noxious useless dead material that does not qualify as living to begin with? How does anything these courses teach follow nature? But these are just my opinions, I know everyone will continue to labor on costly, futile, and ridiculous experiments. I must remind everyone this is the philosophers stone- perhaps we should think like philosophers- who themselves followed the open book of nature to discover the secret. I would stress to any beginning student to look deeply and at all times to suspect metaphor where it is plainly spoken.

metals - meta - metaphor


The Tomb of Semiramis
And Geber saith, If in operations you lose your money, reflect not injuriously on us, but impute it to your own imprudence; for our Art requires no great expenses.

Joannes Agricola - Treatise on Gold
This is so because the Philosophers unanimously indicate that the first beginning of the Work must and should be a work based on the rays of the Sun, as Sendivogius says. This saying has made a fool of so many and has sublimated their brain to such an extent that for the sake of Mercury their work came to nothing and went up in the air. Even so, whenever I entered a laboratory, I saw that they were busy preparing the Mercury of the Sun. Much money has been squandered on it and strange processes have been invented, that one must rightly wonder that human ingeniosity has accomplished to fathom that secret. And I say frankly, if Hermes and Geber were to raise from the dead, they would be horrified and could never do such works. And although Geber experienced many beautiful things in distillation and wrote tremendous processes himself, they are nothing in comparison with the present works, for each wants to be above the other. Each tries to show his work in a better light, and each praises his work above that of others. If they are seen in daylight, however, they all show the same result. That is, one remains a fool like another, and one accomplishes as little as another.

An Open Entrance... Philalethes
I have spoken about Mercury, Sulphur, the vessel, their treatment, etc. etc.; and, of course, all these things are to be understood with a grain of salt. You must understand that in the preceding chapters I have spoken metaphorically; if you take my words in a literal sense, you will reap no harvest except your outlay.
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Re: Hello

Post  solomon levi on Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:23 pm

Okay. I'm not sure that everyone's expectations are so high as to be searching for the philosophers' stone.A course could give valuable lab experience and instruction in making extracts from herbs and minerals.There are several people out there now that know the circulatum minus - is that not a valuable gem worth paying for?I like doing spagyrics! There's so much that can be done and learned from alchemy besides the philosophers' stone.If you heal someone from a cronic illness with a spagyric plant stone, how much is that worth?Can we put a price on these things? Aren't sick people already spending money on pharmaceuticals that onlymake things worse?There's nothing wrong with taking courses, unless you EXPECT them to teach you the philosophers' stone.And if they don't claim to, why expect it?I'm pretty sure anyone that would take a course is in a position that they will learn something from it,or they wouldn't be drawn to it. And learning has relative value to different people. Who can say how much to spend?These are personal matters, and thus relative. Noone else can judge them for another.Arcitectus didn't claim to be searching for the philosophers' stone in the courses,so there's no reason to dis them. He/she asked our opinon on the material, not on taking courses.

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Re: Hello

Post  deviadah on Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:18 pm

arcitectus wrote:I'm new here, just wanted to drop a line to everyone and say hey.
Welcome

I have been a bit absent so I've missed your entry!

Glad to have you on board!

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Re: Hello

Post  ThPhARTh on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:29 am

hey Wink

just my 2 cents here..

it all depends on who you meet. who is 'guiding' you trough the process.
see we all agree on the difficulty of the subject, as in being able to under stand .

now, there are a lot of 'guides'out there that help you 'blind your mind'as Solo said.
yet , there are as well (more rare yea i agree) Guides that help you in becoming your own Guide.
a lot depends on your own state of being,..expectations etc..
most of the time they work as mirrors, nothing more.
when the Guide is advanced he can mirror to you all the things your eyes cant see yet etc..

keep your mind open, i agree.
and dont believe just anything u are told.
experiment with it, test it out, Life will tell you when you are on your path or off it.
when it's "home' or not...

talking about Will, is a difficult topic as well.
Which Will are we talking about?

as Crowley said: Do What Thay Will Shall Be The Law
or Jesus The Christ: Lord Thay Will is Law

can it be that there are different types/kinds of will?
and so on..

( a simple test is this: use your mental focus on 1 thing.
lets say.. the cup you drink your coffee in..
Hold this cup in a thought for about 20 minutes, without any another thought entering your mind..
..so no thoughts about the colour of the cup nor its shape or associations this cup gives you
(as that are -at least- 2 thoughts already)
and no thoughts about other stuff)

so, courses can be good for you.
ask your self in deep what you want to see accomplished.
and see if the course helps you in the process, or not Wink

good luck;D

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Re: Hello

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