The little regarded art of astrology in alchemical practice

[monkeyblood]

I didnt know where to put this thread but as the use of astrology in alchemical process is inimical for timing,I thought here.The use of astrological timing is a very practical thing when it comes to doing ritual or experiments to enhance the chances of success.

One question that has become foremost in my mind as I visit these occult and alchemical sites is the paucity of and lack of interest in sound astrological knowledge.Why?
The best astrological sites seemed completely divorced from the major alchemical sites.It amazes me as the greatest alchemists all were competent astrologers.And the disdain and lack of interest of many modern alchemists seem to have for astrology baffles me.I put it down to ignorance myself.
And laziness,as a student of the art,I well know the effort required to achieve a basic level of competence.Even studying the truncated body of knowledge called modern astrology took me years of effort and cost me thousands of dollars.

[deviadah]

I moved it to The Sacred Art since this kind of thing is both lab and spirit (one can apply astrology in both cases)!

Astrology and Alchemy in my opinion is ONE AND THE SAME!

There is really now difference, and it would be interesting to hear if anyone knows when, or where, this seperation has occured. Now astrology has got a bad rep due to the New Age culture which I personally find a bit too much at times. Horoscopes and palm readings and all that crap has ruined the true form of astrology - which is to use the forces of the planets to influence the Great Work!

Paracelsus himself was both an astrologist and an alchemist, and many alchemists have employed both areas. Isaac Newton, for instance, is best known for his astological works (astronomical) as is Tycho Brahe - but both were also great alchemists!

Good topic monkeyblood!

[monkeyblood]

Well I can help with that.There are two excellent books,The Fated Sky by Bobrick Benson and Traditional Astrology by Noonan that describe how and when the great divide occurred.I'll go through them and quote or paraphrase what I can.However they are well written,informative books on astrology,well worth a try by anyone interested in occult knowledge.
After Newton and with the rise of the age of science and reason astrology fell into disrepute and disarray.It was in the nineteenth century that interest was revived,primarily by one Alan Leo who was also a theosophist.As much as he helped to popularise the art he simultaneously debased it,primarily because he was a mediocre astrologer.
But like many who call themselves astrologers today he knew more than most people which conferred on him a kind of authority he didnt possess.And also like some wellknown astrologers today he was a master of marketing which saw his form of astrology take precedence.

'A lie will make its way around the world before the truth has its boots on.'

Terry Pratchett

[monkeyblood]

One of the reasons that I came to this site was that I had read your posts on other sites,Deviadah,and I appreciated your evenhanded treatment,interest and knowledge of astrology.

I also like the scope of alchemy,the astrological sites can be a little limiting for subject choice....unless its astrological.

I also like the absence of the chest beating narcissicism and aggression of other sites.It seems to be the hallmark of the dilettante occultist.I find the discussion here to be thoughtful,knowledgeable and courteous.Playful at times.All good.

[Anibis]

One area in modern astrology that seems to hold a lot of promise is Heliocentric astrology. Especially for a being just stepping outside of our home planet, this seems to situate us very squarely in the middle of our own cosmological system. It may be that future astrologers will put more stock in the Heliocentric than the geocentric methods. Thoughts?
-Anibis

[monkeyblood]

That is a very fruitful area for exploration and one,I must confess,I know little about.Interestingly enough,it was Copernicus's rediscovery of the heliocentric system that helped to contribute to astrology's decline.
'The decline of astrology is generally ascribed to the triumph of the heliocentric hypothesis of Copernicus,to Kepler's laws,Newtons mechanics,the discovery of new planets...and 'last but not least to the healthy skepticism of modern man.''The astrologer himself careth not whether(as Copernicus saith)the Sun be the center of the world.' declared Sir Christopher Heydon.Indeed,it made no difference in that sense to Copernicus either,or to Brahe,Dee,Galileo,Kepler,Lilly or Morin.
Again it was said,that after the appearance of new stars in a once unchanging sky,or the discovery of Jupiter's moons,astrology was belied;but astrology was a self-contained system that operated on Neoplatonic and Pythagorean terms.'

Pg 237 The Fated Sky

[monkeyblood]

This is from Fred Gettings,an occult scholar truly worthy of the title.The word scholar seems to be bandied about so easily these days.
His book,'The Arkana Dictionary of Astrology' is worth a place on anyones bookshelf.I have found it to be an invaluable reference book and am always referring to it.Like now.

Heliocentric System- A model of the solar system which places the Sun as a fixed point at the centre,and uses this as the basic co-ordinate to which all cosmic measurements are related.In astrology,this is contrasted with the geocentric system,which in its modern form is much adapted from the original Copernican form,and is heliocentric.
The idea of a heliocentric system was known to the greeks,as for example,in the model proposed in outline during the 3rd century,by Aristarchus of Samos.In setting out the form of his own ptolemaic system,Ptolemy mentions the Aristarcheian model,but appears to think that it does not give a satisfactory explanation of celestial phenomena.Most modern astrology is founded upon a geocentric view of the solar system,though all information used in the calculation of nativities is now ultimately derived from the heliocentric system.

Pg 231 Arkana Dictonary of Astrology

Page 229 of the book goes into a more thorough explanation of heliocentric astrology.

[deviadah]

I find the discussion here to be thoughtful,knowledgeable and courteous. Playful at times. All good.

Well, thank yourself too!

We all make it happen together!

I think the reason for the nice mood is becuase there is no big EGO here! And even if one would turn up s/he would probably disappear quickly since s/he would not fit in! Actually last year one such person turned up and vanished! Good riddance!



I am enjoying this thread!

I will return with more thoughts... don't have any right now and rather post when I got something proper to say!

But let me just throw out that the 13th sign, The Serpent Holder, is the astrological sign that directly can be linked to alchemy (although all of them can)! There are also many ways to look at all this: Calendrics (which I am sure Anibis has got a thing or two to say about), the symbolism of all the planets, their influence on our planet and of course the combination of all these areas.

Using astrology to see into the future is the least interesting, I feel, since the future is not written. But to use it as a tool and veichle to journey inwards is where the real gold can be found!

[monkeyblood]

Hmmm.....the serpent holder.....going into contentious ground there,Deviadah......well,I mean its a battlefield between the Classicists and the Moderns over that particular issue....I hesitate to make my opinions known on this so I will instead defer to the experts.First a definition for the uninitated by Fred Gettings.

Ophiuchus-constellation from approximately 27 degrees Scorpio to 27 degrees Sagittarius,straddling the celestial equator in a 40 degree arc.It is sometimes called Serpentarius(serpentholder) though the serpent itself is usually described as a seperate asterism(Draco).....Ptolemy likens its influence to Saturn tempered by Venus.

There is great debate over the willingness of some astrologers to attribute it as the thirteenth sign of the zodiac.

'In Western astrology the zodiac is based on the ecliptic,the sun's imaginary path through the sky,dividing it into 12 equal sections.This is known as the tropical zodiac.
Indian astrologers use a slightly different zodiac,It contains the same 12 signs as the tropical zodiac but gradually moves with the stars and so is known as the sidereal zodiac.Because of this the indian sidereal zodiac is no longer aligned with the tropical zodiac.
By contrast,the zodiac used by modern astronomers is based on the constellations,huge unequal-sized groupings of stars and achieved its current form as recent as 1928.It contains 13 signs,the extra one being Ophiuchus,which has nothing to do with mainstream astrology,'

Pg 12 The Ultimate Astrologer by Nicholas Campion

[monkeyblood]

In exploring this issue it must be always remembered that for the classical astrologer astrology is a self contained system operating on Neo Platonic and Pythagorean terms.Hence there is no room for a thirteenth sign in THAT system.

I have an extemely lucid,if acidic,explanation for this by John Frawley.He is one of the best astrologers in the world today.His erudition is impressive.This is taken from Chapter 18 'Some Popular Fallacies' from his book,The Real Astrology.

Fallacy:Ophiuchus,Arachnae,or whatever this years version might be,is the thirteenth sign of the zodiac,knowledge of which has been suppressed by ignorant astrologers\the Catholic church\the male sex\the Wicked Witch of the West.This revolutionises the whole of astrology.'

Fact:No,it doesnt.The zodiac is divided into twelve equal sections,which through the indescribable majesty of creation are mirrored in the constellations that bear the same names.It is not possible to discover a thirteenth twelfth.
Twelve is the number of celestial manifestation on Earth:the outward,expansive and returning facets of the Divine action-which we know as the three modes of cardinal.fixed and mutable-manifesting through the quaternary of earth,air,fire and water give (3 times 4) twelve.No amount of sleight of mind can make 3 times 4 produce thirteen.

[monkeyblood]

So,Anibis,I'm curious.....I've noticed your interest in heliocentric astrology on others sites as well.....what draws you to it? What do you feel its possible importance could be for us?
And Deviadah,what is it about Ophiuchus that appeals to you?

[Anibis]

Well, intuitively it just strikes me as the 'master' key for our solar system. Any geocentric system for any planet whatsoever is going, ultimately, to be a subset of the heliocentric. Also it coordinates astrology with astronomy; and as far as I am concerned the closer the two are mapped, the better. I am a proponant of scienctific understanding married with the spiritual 'meaning giving' process. I also think that the heliocentric astrology almost places the human heart at the solar center itself, which is appropriate IMO. It's like an astrological map drawn from the vantage point of Tipareth...

The other thing is that it greatly enables the construction of extra-planetary calendars through the fact that it is possible to ascertain the Nodes of these planets. I was able to cook up a working mercurial calendar by tracking these.

I have a lot to learn, though... The more I look into astrology, the more I like it... Strange how it seems to become such a different discipline than the occult. I wonder why? Intuitively, you'd think they were connected, but it doesn't seem to play out that way too much.

-Anibis

[Anibis]

Also about Ophiuchus, I tend to concur that its a bit inelegant to insert a 13th, very tiny sign into the zodiac... When was this originally used? What culture? How does it effect the gestalt of the astrological system?

I do know that there is precedent for having a 13th month. In the egyptian calendar there were 12 months of 30 days, and an extra 13th month of 5 days named for the Children of Nu. The maya also used 13 extensively, and I believe the druids may have had a (13x28)+1 calendar (Thirteen moons of 28 days plus an extra day: Arguelles uses this for his 'Dreamspell system'). HOWEVER in every one of these cases, we are talking about a temporal measure, however, in the case of Ophiuchus, the attempt is made to introduce a new(old?) spacial division into the 12-fold system. I'm not convinced yet of the elegance of this. What about the whole system of Decans and quinances etc... does this go out the window with Ophiuchus? Just curious. My GF would be Ophiuchan if it were 'for real'. So, with all that being said, what's the support for the idea? C'mon Ophiuchus, defend thyself!



-An

[monkeyblood]

I agree with you that its the master key.The sun dominates and is the heart of our solar system,no accident that it rules that organ in astrology.And you only need to look at our solar system and the relative sizes of the planets(I'll include the sun and the moon under that even though they are properly called luminaries) to see our massive sun dwarfing the rest of them,even the great chronocrators,Jupiter and Saturn.

They are like two marbles next to a basketball.And as for pluto...pooh!....nothing.Many people who 'know' astrology seem to forget that its applied to a very real actuality,thats its not just symbolic.Size and proximity matter in terms of influence.

You calculated your own calendar....I'm tremendously impressed by that....being a natural humanities student I've found the calculations necessary for astrology have not come easily.....I did the calcs exam for my qualifications last year and by the end of three hours my brain was like a piece of chewed string.

There is so much to learn,I feel I will be studying it for the rest of my life.Particularly as so many astrologers are fighting their way out of the sprawling,ill informed,amorphous mass that modern astrology has become.The new developments are really exciting..... 'the tradition' was rediscovered and the worlds most dedicated and competent astrologers realised how the art had been betrayed and trivialised......well,the new age might just find their complacent ownership of astrology being clawed back by the people who really know it.

[monkeyblood]

An easy to understand definition of astrology seems to elude most people.Calling it an art or a science gives it a label,but one that doesnt explain anything.And calling it a science makes the scientists go crazy so I came up with these definitions.Try them on.

A system,or rather,a series of systems applied to a science.Which makes me a systems analyst.LOL....takes the new age out of it,doesnt it? But I'm not sure if it isnt a bit too dry.

A self contained symbolic system based on what can be seen by the human eye.

Of course that takes Uranus,Neptune and Pluto as well as the asteroids and centauric bodies out of the loop.Its more a definition of the tradition which goes back 2,500 years.A lot of weight in that.

DO NOT TALK TO ME ABOUT CHIRON. Laugh.

[Anibis]

Who are the greatest living masters of the art at the moment, in your opinion? I ask because I'd like to know who to keep my eyes peeled for as I begin to really dive into astrology. I have not practiced casting charts or anything like that. I am a good tarot metaphysician and pathworker, so I have a sense of all the symbols, but the calculations are what's kept me at bay...

My sense is that if anything really grounds an energy that is considered 'mercurial' or 'martial' or whatever, it's the physical planet in question. This has to do with the whole relation of the four Qabbalistic worlds, since assiah, the physical world contains the other three, and acts as their 'base', in the world. The physical planets are the anchor for the energy, and the horoscope, or astrological projection is a bridge between those energies, and their macrosmic pattern, and us entities here and our soul/psyches, which through the aid of a common language, form themselves unconsciously into the same patterns as the heavens display. When that is geocentred, our souls and personalities take a certain terrestrial-based perspective which is functional and all that, but is not really aware of a reality outside itself. As soon as the patterning gets transfered to the Heliocentric point of reference, not only is consciousness still able to model itself on the terrestrial model, but it also gains a powerful sense of symmetry that helps it see a bigger picture that it's own perspective. Human consciousness goes stellar. I think the shift to a heliocentric model of the psyche will very much assist us in evolving our consciousness to match our science (Which is very much needed at the moment), since our science is already using the Helio measure.

The other possibility then exists, for actually constructing ephemeri for other planets, such as Jupiter or mercury. As an excercise, those sorts of ephemeri could really open up tremendous territory for 'psychonautical' exploration... (I would LOVE to see a Galactic ephemeris, by the way... I'm not sure if it's even possible, but THAT, my friends, would truly be the mother lode, so to speak...)

Tell me more about what's happening in astrology today, cuz I really don't know. Am I intuiting a general movement towards helio astrology and accurately sensing it's purpose?Anyone else doing these sorts of calendars? Believe it or not, it wasn't really hard. Now I have to admit, that the ones I made are actually based on nodal intersections with the earth's orbital plane, rather than the Suns (I think). Also they are measured in earth days. It would be also possible to construct a true Mercury Calendar, as some have. Mine is more of a terrestrial-Mercury guage. I mean Mercury is not really that tough, when you think about it right? It's pretty much 88.0 Earth days in orbit (and a mercurial day is exactly twice that. Wierd, eh?), You just gotta isolate it's North Node, and then you have a reasonably accurate 88 day period from 'spring to spring'. Mars is also close to an even number of earth days: 687.0, more or less. Anything that oscillates regularly across a definate point of measurement can have a calender written onto it... Good for the sanity, methinks... the ole' grego rian is a little 'clunky', to put it mildly... Makes us all a little batty in my opinion...
-Anibis

Here are links to more astronomical attempts to create extra-terrestrial calendars. They're cool, but at least one of them is into the ole' James Randi, so I image wouln't be too thrilled to listen to me, Lol... anyways:

http://pweb.jps.net/~tgangale/mars/mercury/gangale.htm
http://www.blort.net/subs/genmerch/calendars/mercury/mercury.htm
http://pweb.jps.net/~tgangale/mars/mercury/moss.htm

This Blort fellow actually proposes an earth calendar with a 6 day week, and has actually remove Thursday from the week ! They soooo, don't get what the ancients were actually doing... dangerous monkeys... A week without Jupiter would not be a good week.

[monkeyblood]

WHOOAWW!.....a Galactic ephemeris.....makes me dizzy and go weak at the knees....the day I get my hands on that baby is the day when I've finally got to where I always wanted to be..

Whoa,now that's a post,Anibis.'Scuse me while I get up from the floor and dust myself off.

The finest astrologers in the world today?

Robert Hand,Robert Zoller and Robert Schmidt,architects of Project Hindsight are venerated,Benjamin Dykes,John Frawley are among them.These are well known,all published.There are maybe fifty people in the world deserving the description.

Bernadette Brady,Demetra George are also very good.

What I would do before diving in is prepare yourself with a historical overview so you have an idea of all the major players over the last two and a half millenia as well its beginnings,early development,periods of great flowering and decline.And importantly how the sorry state of affairs astrology has been in for the last century came about.You'll pick alot about astrological theory just by reading about its history.

Going back to an earlier post where you wrote 'strange how it seems to become such a difficult discipline than the occult...you'd think they were connected' If you read 'The Fated Sky' by Bobrick Benson you'll see that alchemy and astrology have been inextricably entwined.Pick up "Chronology of the Astrology of the Middle East and the West By Period' by Robert Hand to go back to astrology's earliest beginnings.He's a scholar as well so his research always shows source material.

There are some excellent schools all over the world.A great teacher is invaluable.I feel blessed to have found mine.Books only take you so far.

Whats going on in astrology today?

Its a battleground.

Between those who dont want to rectify the mistakes of the past because it would mean they would have to admit they might be wrong and those who want to restore the integrity of the art.

John Frawleys 'The Real Astrology' is a great book to read if you want to know whats going on and learn alot at the same time as well as be amused by his acidic,pointed wit.I like him very much,he does satire well.

[deviadah]

Great posts you two...

Well, I don't think it should be a constant 13th sign zodiac... more so an additional aspect. On the other hand I enjoy chaos at times so an uneven number is not that foreign to me.

But I must say that even 12 is uneven actually. It should be 10 signs!



Personally the Mayan calendar is by far the most interesting!

Todays date in the Mayan calendar!
What is your Mayan Sun sign?

[monkeyblood]

Great posts you two...

Well, I don't think it should be a constant 13th sign zodiac... more so an additional aspect. On the other hand I enjoy chaos at times so an uneven number is not that foreign to me.

But I must say that even 12 is uneven actually. It should be 10 signs!



Personally the Mayan calendar is by far the most interesting!

Thanks Deviadah.....I'm finding this thread really stimulating......hard to keep up with in terms of all the different areas that get casually get thrown into the mix....is this how occultists think all the time?.......but its like the continuous alchemy story thread.....I guess I'll just have to keep up with everyone.....or self combust....

Ophiuchus is definitely an additional aspect to be aware of....as is Draco,the serpent of the serpent holder......those two have increasingly being claiming my attention for a while now......theres some wildly speculative stuff about them out there on the net that the proper astrologer in me deliberately sets aside.....but another facet keeps turning towards it...

Mmnnn......should be ten....there are sound reasons for that as well.....one area I'd really like to explore are the reasons for using the 12 divisions instead of 10......and to understand better the systems that do use the 10......there seems to be no wrong or right in this territory.....just different systems.

The Mayan calendar....well,that is just a stand alone.....so,Child of Chaos,what do you find so interesting about it? Is Quetzacoatl's prophesised return part of that?

[monkeyblood]

Okay,I'm going to come back to Heliocentricity and Ophiuchus in a minute but one thing I want to show is the difference between modern astrology and the tradition,or Real Astrology as John Frawley calls it.

Best way to do that is a chart read in each method,I'm going to step out of the way and let a master do his thing,so I'll be using John Frawleys delineation of Hitlers chart using both methods.Its from his book Real Astrology.Its a bit of a read but worth it,imo.

Adolf Hitler

If traditional astrology was so successful,we might reasonably wonder what happened to it.Why was it replaced by the tepid banalities with which we are familiar today?....Let us conduct a test of at least as much scientific validity as any of the tests by which the scientific sceptics claim to have tested astrology.We shall take the birthchart of a wellknown person and subject it to cold readings by an astrologer from the past and one from the present.Unfortunately,all the ancient astrologers whom we invited to take part in this experiment were otherwise engaged,being fully occupied turning in their graves at the state of modern astrology;so we will have to use their writings.In the interest of scrupulous scientific fairness,we shall do the same with our representative modern.

We shall take as our subject a life whose proclivities are well documented:that of Adolf Hitler.

Even those modern astrologers who have taken sufficient trouble to look at Hitlers birthchart frequently confess a certain bafflement.While it is apparent that this is not someone whom we would necessarily wish to invite to tea,the depths of his nastiness elude modern astrological techniques.From the traditional perspective,these depths are quite clear.
The traditional method of judging a birth chart begins with assessing the temperament.This is,as it were,the cloth from which the person is cut.All the detail which we later see must be judged against this background,as if the details were embroidery on a garment......The fundamental question when determining for what purpose the garment is fit is whether the material is a delicate silk or a tough denim.

So in the person.Is he predominantly choleric,phlegmatic,sanguine or melancholic - or a mixture of two of these?

This balance is calculated according to the respective measure of hot,cold,moist and dry qualities,manifesting in their four possible combinations as earth,air,fire and water.......In most people there are one or two of these qualities which are notably strong.This balance shows which of the temperaments the person has:choleric (fiery) phlegmatic (watery) sanguine(airy) or melancholic(earthy).Far from just describing a set of mental habits,this balance tells us also about the persons appearance,the illnesses from which they are likely to suffer and much,much more.

Having this basic understanding of temperament is vital if we are to put the details which we find later in any meaningful context.

It is all very well knowing that the native will murder his granny;but does he beat her to death in a fit of choleric fury,or does he slowly poison her from sanguine curiosity?

Only a knowledge of temperament will tell.


I love Frawley because he teaches as he writes,he doesnt just tell.If its too boring for you,let me know.

[monkeyblood]

The Modern,if attempting to look at Hitler on anything approaching this level,would note the number of planets in earth signs(Sun,Mars and Venus in Taurus,Moon and Jupiter in Capricorn) and decide that he must be earthy in nature.

Far from it:in traditional terms,the temperament is strongly choleric,or fiery.

So Hitler is choleric;the problems start when we consider HOW this choleric fire is going to find outlet.By its own hot,dry nature,Mars is the planet with natural affinity in the choleric temperament.Finding a strong,wellplaced Mars in the chart would suggest the native can successfully integrate into society as a warrior- in modern terms this often manifests as the professional athlete.

Hitlers Mars,however,is in a dreadful state.The Sun,which is also hot and dry and so might also allow positive expression of this choler,is also very weak.This choleric temperament,we begin to see,is going to manifest itself in the most appalling of ways.

[monkeyblood]

At this stage in our judgement,our attention is struck by the placement of the fixed stars- that is what we normally refer to as 'stars' as opposed to the 'wandering stars',or planets....They are almost entirely ignored by modern astrology;as the following shows,this is something of an omission.

On Hitlers Midheaven is Praesepe,known to the Chinese as "Exhalation of piled up corpses'. The midheaven is the place in the chart particularly associated with career,or public image.Praesepe brings 'disease,disgrace,adventure,insolence,wantonness,brutality'.

The Sun is on a particularly unpleasant star,Sharatan,which causes bodily injuries,unscrupulous defeat,destruction by fire,war or earthquake,while the Moon is on Facies,giving a violent death.Like Praesepe,Facies afflicts the eyesight...Hitlers physical eyesight was weak....

Finally,in itself if much less significance but important by virtue of its angularity is Mercury,falling on Vertex,the Andromeda Nebula,which repeats the testimony of afflicted sight and violent death.

The Real Astrology pg14

[Anibis]

Well, maybe this can pin down where exactly occultists find issue with astrology. Where someone like say, Rob Brezny appears to be saying: I am contructing a story to tell on the basis of your chart, and it has nothing to do with fate, but rather a kindof age-old emotion laden symbolic structure and I'm gonna use it to craft a narrative that has positive psychological benefits for the astrologee, this chart of Hitler you mention is quite alarming because it seems to espouse a sense of Fate... Magicians aren't big fan's of fate... Destiny, maybe, but fate is a very dangerous and ugly one indeed. The adept is said to have 'erased the lines of fate', in a sense... Maybe that's why Peter Carroll poo pooed astrology. I mean, what do you say to someone who has such an inauspicious chart? Sorry, luck of the draw, you're fucked!?!? Know what I mean? Astrology could easily become the end, and persons the tools to that end, which is a very screwy world to live in.... How would you handle this?
-A-

[monkeyblood]

Oh,Anibis....what are you doing to me?...LOL....its got to the point now that every time you post I take notes in point form so I can try to answer them.

I have so much backlog I'm going to end up with RSI.

And I have so much still to write on the Hitler chart comparison.Not to mention the heliocentric thread of the thread.Its kinda fun to try and keep up with that quicksilver mercurial mind of yours but little ole fixed earth me is starting to go a little loopy and fray at the edges.I think I also smell smoke.....

Ok,first with Hitlers chart,you have to remember its being read in hindsight with full knowledge of the man and the things he did....Use his power and position to have others kill millions of people in concentration camps,gas chambers then harvest the bodies or allow others to commit depraved acts on them while still alive.So we are dealing with a fucked unit here to start with...and we know it..which skews the reading a bit.Its easy to go hardcore.You dont have that information when you read for clients and temper your readings accordingly.

Rob Brezny...age old symbolic emotionladen tool...hmmmm.....where does the emotion come from....us or the tool?

What you have with the tradition is an extremely incisive tool that can be frightening in its clarity.I found it so at first,coming from the comforting 'tepid banalities' of modern astrology.And,at times,I still find it so.The tradition is something you immerse yourself in calmly and steadily.It challenges all of the chinks in the adepts armour.

How adept are we really?

How much have we 'erased the lines of fate'?

The language is strong and powerful,with emotional resonances we of this modern world are not always comfortable with.But you must always remember that we are dealing with a use of language that is worlds apart from the one we know.Having studied much history and being familiar with human development......having a historical perspective,so to speak.....has helped immeasurably in being able to face with detachment the torrid language of traditional astrology head on.Just read Foucault's 'Discipline and Punishment' to see how recently we have lifted ourselves from a violent and brutish way of living.

Modern astrology,to its credit, has tried to rectify the torrid,emotion laden language of the older writers,with mixed results.

Fate versus Destiny.Well,there is another thread all of its own.Personally I believe nothing can be fated,provided you can rise above.Or perhaps it can,I am no oracle so I cannot say.I have always believed the more you raise your conciousness the less likely you are to be bound.....to anything.Manmade rules dont apply anymore.

Mastery is the key.And it only comes with challenge.

I dont know Peter Carroll so I cant comment but I will say there are too many people who deride it who have never taken the time to study it.And if they have studied it they never give their system,length of study AND practice or teachers or schools so I cannot judge the calibre of their opinion.Unless I know this these opinions are just so much air to me.How can you have a valid opinion on something you dont really understand?
And I sense a hint of fear within that dismissive derision,scratch under the skin of most people and you will find superstitious fears alive and well no matter how much contemptuous skepticism and braggadocio they throw at you.

Astrology,at its most powerful,can blow you away,fracturing your world view,even those of us who swim in familiar waters.It still does that to me at times.

So what would I say to someone with such an inauspicious chart?

Ah,synchronicity......I only had this conversation yesterday.I have had a sabbatical from readings and a friend offered to send people to me but I had to confess to him the dilemma I am in.I had to mis\fortune to study modern astrology first and I can no longer do those readings without feeling I am taking money for a lie.

Knowing better now,the conundrum I am now in is what to say to someone,as you so delicately put it,with an inauspicious chart.To ignore the negative aspects of a chart is cowardly and so very modern astrology which wants everything to be sugar and spice and all things nice.Pap,in short.

People arent like that.

The answer is at the moment I dont know.I have to begin to explore the ways of how you can,with clarity and compassion,say these things to someone so they can go away and understand them without feeling doomed but empowered.Its quite a responsibility,Anibis,and one I take seriously.So when I have worked it out I will let you know.

I know,first hand,the damage an irresponsible,carelessly worded reading can do.I dont want that on my conscience.

Phew! I think thats all,back to Hitler.

[monkeyblood]

" Where someone like say, Rob Brezny appears to be saying: I am contructing a story to tell on the basis of your chart, and it has nothing to do with fate, but rather a kindof age-old emotion laden symbolic structure and I'm gonna use it to craft a narrative that has positive psychological benefits for the astrologee,"
-A-

Yes,I'd agree with that definition,its a very good way of expressing it and there's no doubt that astrology can be used as a psycho-therapeutic tool.

The only problem is with the delineation,or interpretation before he goes on to tell the story.What method is he using? How good a practitioner of the craft is he? Only a good practitioner can tell you that.What I hope to show you with the comparisons of Hitlers chart is how much pertinent information is completely missed by many astrologers because they studied a truncated version of the real art.

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