Re: The White Stone of Urine

[carabric]

Take a look at it folks. This is the white stone. Sorry for the horrible image quality, and you're right, it does appear slightly yellow. That's because it is slightly yellow

Historically speaking the white stone is just white...as in snow white as it is often described. Crystalline and waxy in appearance. If you are unsure I can readily find plenty of source material that says so. Also the true litmus test would be for you to place it on a plate of red hot copper and see if it turns the copper silver without flying away from the flame or evaporating any of it's waxy moisture. If it is dry then it would for all intent and purposes be at the stage of Mars (if more gray) or Jupiter (moist and white but needing the element Air)...or calcined white earth. Or as Philalethes would describe it....a lead roof which has been calcined over time by the suns rays. However yellow follows the white stone if the fire is increased. But it's more citrine in color...not a yellow white color.

[carabric]

The alchemical name for such an insoluble powder is termed a "stone" because it's insoluble in most solvents, just like "rocks" and other "stones."

I disagree with this part of your idea, historically speaking it is readily made soluble in alcohol, as well as the certain oils that are effected during the process. One of the main reasons why it is called a stone is because it is not destroyed by fire. Or if you want- here are the words of Rulandus:
Afterwards it was called the Philosophical Stone, because it was made of one thing. Even at first it is truly a stone. Also because it is dry and hard, and can be triturated like a stone. But it is more capable of resistance and more solid. No fire or other element can destroy it. It is also no stone, because it is fluid, can be smelted and melted.

I believe to some part you may be confused about it's dissolution, for instance in this quote from the six keys of Eudoxus:
The Elements of the Stone cannot be dissolved but by this Nature wholly Divine

In effect, once the true elements have been separated and recombined they're union is completely permanent and cannot be broken up by any means other then by art, or true way...i.e. the way they were brought into union. The quote means those elements are now bound, but that does not mean that the stones cannot be made to dissolve or take on a watery nature. This from Hollandus elucidates it more thoroughly.

Take of this Stone the quantity of a Wheat-corn, lay it in a little good Wine in a small Glass, half full, or a quarter full, make the Wine warm, the Stone will melt like Butter, and the Wine will be red as Blood, and very sweet in your mouth, as ever you tasted

Now if you were able to evaporate off all the wine- the stone would, to some degree, return back to it's native state.

[carabric]

harveydent, I think you're making the grave mistake of assuming there is only one philosophers stone, only one white stone, and only one red stone. This is in error, because there are many of these!

If you would, please find source material that would say contrary....I am wholly of the belief of just ONE. That is how the ancients have always said it. Now there are other things throughout the historic record which in some way effect certain qualities which are similar to the stones: white and red. But you really should understand these are not the same in any way. They are often referred to as "particulars" because of their limits, read the Dwellings of the Philosophers if you want more info on these. But please- before you are led astray, read the various litmus tests which they will suggest you do in order to see if your process was wholly philosophical and correct. Understand the order of the colors of the work and that they do not skip colors. black, white then red. If ever you have red before black then you are erring. It must always putrefy first, the only way to see if it has truly putrefied is if it goes as black as sackcloth or pitch. Black happens in the red work, black happens in the white work...did the color green happen after it went black the first time? An easy litmus test is to take any of the true oils of the work, preferably the green...place any small cut plant material in the oil, did it in a very short time go black and putrefy? Was there another oil which floated on the top? Urbigerus says it much better:

If into this your Vegetable Elixir you put any green Vegetable, shred in pieces, it will in less than half a quarter of an hour without any external Heat putrify, and precipitate itself into the bottom quite dead, (which is nothing but the cursed Excremental Earth) and on the top will swim a yellow Oil, containing the Salt and Sulphur, and the Elixir will be of the Color of the Plant, comprehending its Vegetable Spirit; which if it does not, 'tis a sign, that your Operations have not been Philosophical.

And you should also take this that he has to say in regard to the first topic of the post, that being can the white and red elixirs be effected by other menstruums.

Some are of Opinion, that both the Elixirs may be produced out of several determined things, as Human Excrements, May-dew, (which they call also their Menstruum from above, or Water from the Clouds) &c. as also that the Grand Elixir may be prepared out of this, or any other Vegetable regenerated Menstruum; but since we know, that such Menstruums, which they call their Philosophical Mercury, although they may dissolve and volatilize Metals, yet cannot meliorate any of them, this Dissolution and Volatilization being neither natural nor Philosophical, we therefore with good Reason judge all those Opinions to be only false Suppositions and ill-grounded and imaginary Notions.

[BeautifulEvil]

If you would, please find source material that would say contrary....I am wholly of the belief of just ONE

Quite opposite from truth, there are many stones, and these can be made from a wide array of starting materials. There is not just one single stone, and the stone does not have to look like it's described in the texts. This undigested white stone indeed past the test of transmutation and medicine, as it has been demonstrated on various underground alchemy forums.

I disagree with this part of your idea, historically speaking it is readily made soluble in alcohol, as well as the certain oils that are effected during the process. One of the main reasons why it is called a stone is because it is not destroyed by fire. Or if you want- here are the words of Rulandus:

I agree with you, I did make a mistake, but I really should've said this stone does not dissolve in water, alcohol, or acid. That's the test for this particular stone. Now the other stones are different as you have stated.

I don't have time to reply to everything, but I will try when I get more time.

[carabric]

Quite opposite from truth, there are many stones, and these can be made from a wide array of starting materials. There is not just one single stone, and the stone does not have to look like it's described in the texts. This undigested white stone indeed past the test of transmutation and medicine, as it has been demonstrated on various underground alchemy forums.

While I've already stated elsewhere of the "particulars" in which those before us effected all manner of transmutation and yet were not the true stones spoken of at length but in effect a pseudo alchemy often dubbed Archemy. I will quote from Dwellings of the Philosophers in the hopes to shed some more light on the matter in which I believe you and many of the NDC camp are working on...again I'm of the same opinion as Fulcanelli (pg82 English trans): As for archemist, they formed a special category, more restricted, more obscure also, among the ancient chemists. The aim which they pursued presented some analogy with that of the alchemists, but the materials and means which they had at their disposal were uniquely chemical materials and means. To transmute metals into one another, to produce gold and silver from coarse minerals, or from saline metallic compounds, to force the gold potentially contained in silver and the silver potentially contained in tin to become real and extractable, was what the archemist had in mind......They cultivated the science of the little particulars, according to the somewhat disdainful expression of the alchemist for these side activities unworthy of the philosopher. Without scorning these useful researchers, let us recognize that very often the most fortunate among them only obtained mediocre benefits, and that the same process, at first successful, later led to nil or uncertain results.

And here again I will give ample backing from the historic record which emphatically states contrary to your opinion of many stones and the various ways you feel they are made. In my opinion to discredit all this is to discredit alchemy as a whole. I know it's not pleasant the idea of starting off at square one again, but they don't call it a maze for nothing.

Circulatum minus Urbigeranum:
XXIX. Some are of Opinion, that both the Elixirs may be produced out of several determined things, as Human Excrements, May-dew, (which they call also their Menstruum from above, or Water from the Clouds) &c. as also that the Grand Elixir may be prepared out of this, or any other Vegetable regenerated Menstruum; but since we know, that such Menstruums, which they call their Philosophical Mercury, although they may dissolve and volatilize Metals, yet cannot meliorate any of them, this Dissolution and Volatilization being neither natural nor Philosophical, we therefore with good Reason judge all those Opinions to be only false Suppositions and ill-grounded and imaginary Notions.

Hermes:
Through this the marvels of the work of one thing are procured and perfected.

Philalethes:
About this Substance the Art of Chymistry is conversant, which handleth and teacheth the means and way of doing it, but not by diverse things, but by one thing alone it is done, to which nothing is to be added; nothing taken away but only the superfluities removed.
To this Authors assent with one accord; when they say our stone is nothing else but Gold digested unto the highest degree, to which Nature and Art, can bring it; and again the first work, saith another Philosopher, is to sublime Mercury, and then into clean Mercury to put clean bodies: many witnesses I could bring, yea the whole current of writers run this way: And what if some subtle Philosophers seem to deny this, on purpose to deceive the unwary? We shall not make it our work to reconcile them; (though we might) for many of them wrote very enviously, on purpose to ensnare; all of them wrote mysteriously, as much as they could to darken the truth: and at the best none of them were but men, and described things according to their apprehensions in Philosophy, none of them wrote in everything the naked truth; for then the Art would become so easie, that it would be condemned.

Robert Fludd Mosaical Philosophy:
All things depend on one principle or beginning, that is one sole Unity, and this principle or beginning is moved, that it may again become a principle, and yet nevertheless it is but one thing only, that does effect it, not departing from the nature of Unity.

I'll stop since I could fill up a page with this, but if you need more proof then I'll gladly send it. Again I ask for any source material you have that says contrary. Even the act of transmutation alone would only confirm my belief that all they are working on in these "underground" alchemy forums/communities is in relation to just the little particulars alone. And while I'm sure it is interesting this alone does not qualify it to be the true stone, or for that fact- a stone at all if you were to follow the historic record. If any of their "stones" or "elixirs" passed any of the other tests then I'd be pleasantly surprised. These "new discoveries" though fascinating to many are nothing new, and are quite old in and of themselves with regard to the subject. These are things that have lead many in earlier times to err and the largest reason, I believe, why many true alchemist held puffers in such disdain. I would hope those being lead down these paths discover why the true art is deemed philosophical, and that for the most part what they are bringing about is contrary to the one.

[BeautifulEvil]

carabric, Thank you very much for all your hard work and citing the source materials. I should start citing source materials, but I believe something different than you. I believe in experimentation and confirmation, regardless of what the historical records or source materials state. Please understand that I appreciate your comments very much, but I am sit in my ways, and I really don't have any evidence (other than historical records/source materials) to make me believe otherwise.

Let's try to come to a common ground on this issue. I will try and see your perspective on this issue, if you try and see my perspective. I believe the best way to enable us to come to a common ground is if you signed up for NDC's group, and viewed some of the results. Remember though, you will need to state a good reason why you want to join his forum, and it would probably behoove you to post a quick introduction whenever you're accepted.

[carabric]

Please understand I'm in no way trying to inflame or call out the difference of opinion in a negative light. I'm just wanting to provide a counterpoint for anyone else who may be interested in pursuing things deeper- so that way they might better be informed to search out their own truth of the matter. A case in point would be the work David Hudson and his ilk brought about during the late 90's and early 00's. Now for all intent and purposes he was completely set and sure in his ways about the notion that his ORME's were the bona fide thing...i.e. the Philosophers Stone. While some may still agree to this, it just doesn't really match up to what is written throughout history...yes Moses burned the golden calf to a white powder which may as well be the same stuff Hudson worked on. Now does this make it the true stone, well to me, no it doesn't- since for thousands of years the one thing written about has not changed. Much the same way the Eskimo has many names for snow, so to do the alchemist have diverse names for the one thing, but it is the one constant with regard to alchemy however diverse it's names may be. I'm not pursuing these matters to boast any scholarly pride, I work in the practical realm as well- the difference is that I am lead by those before me. Or as Fulcanelli would say "In this way I am controlled by the ancients before me", it is their Cabala, something which took me a long time to grasp and something that is still a bit of a struggle in this morning light. I believe I understand your perspective on the matter, as much as one can for another...especially since for the most part it was at one time very similar to beliefs I shared. Well good luck on your quest...I'll try again sometime to join that group but I'm sure it will be denied.

[Salazius]

Hello,

Concerning the Golden Water, it is really important to understand that, whatever you do with it, it will obviously and actually work on your psycho-energetical structure. What the matter show, it happens in you also, maybe not very strongly some time.

I just invite you to meditate deeply on what exactly is the golden water.
Where does it come from at the origin. What can you understand of it in and hermetical way ? And of course what is it made of ? Hermetically of course. This deep meditation can be very useful to open the field of understanding how this matter works.

Concerning the apparition of the oil/film, you can heat the matter slowly -no dilution needed-, in a close vessel (be careful), then, let it cool, in the close or open vessel, and in a week, or less the film, very dense some times, with crystals on it, will appear in the surface.

I have always worked with glass containers, I saw that plastic do nothing on the Golden Water, plastic is not alive, and tends to stop the evolution of the matter.

Regards,
Salazius

[BeautifulEvil]

Concerning the apparition of the oil/film, you can heat the matter slowly -no dilution needed-, in a close vessel (be careful), then, let it cool, in the close or open vessel, and in a week, or less the film, very dense some times, with crystals on it, will appear in the surface.

Very good suggestion Salazius. I've never been able to get a dense layer to form.

[Salazius]

Hi,

Just to say that I have also witnessed the apparition of an iridescent film on the surface of the matter after heating it.

Bey
Salazius

[deviadah]

Why not give credit where credit is due?

I've heard BE give NDC (or 100% Truth as he calls himself here) lots of credit, in fact so much that we have his site linked in our resources...

None own gnosis, none ever shall!

Shame on you.

I am not taking sides in these matters but I will not see two things on these forums:

1. Bitchin'
2. Drama

Everyone please refrain from this...

[phliosehea]

If NDC is in fact 400 years old and goes by the name of Johann Isaac Hollandus then sure, he deserves all the credit in the world...but unfortunately this is not the case...B.E. doesn't even need to give NDC credit...it's quite plainly written within Hollandus's works. But of course- for some ego outweighs all reason, and I'm sure NDC is bogged down with more then enough to go around. But feel free to continue believing that he understands some important secret which is readily found and plainly spoken first by Hollandus, and that it's some amazing insight that he (NDC) came up with..

I would pay more attention to what Hollandus says following this experiment, that many counterfeit for art.

[deviadah]

If NDC is in fact 400 years old and goes by the name of Johann Isaac Hollandus then sure, he deserves all the credit in the world...

[WildAlchemist]

The goji berry contains ORMUS - its in the polysaccharides...!

[BeautifulEvil]

Field, thank you for your concern, but I have given NDC credit for this. However, this process does indeed belong to Hollandus, if it even "belongs" to anybody. I am the type that enjoys freedom of information, and this includes alchemy.

Deviadah is right, not a single person own gnosis. Thank everybody for backing me up. I don't want to offend or alienate anybody on this forum, and if I have, then please forgive me!

Finis!

[BeautifulEvil]

Right, but you can't post information from NDC's group here because that's disrespectful. Are you still on NDC's forum?

No, but I have somebody that relays information sometimes. Regardless, if you want a fight, you should take it somewhere else buddy. I will not fight with you over this.

I need to delete that blasted blog, and I think I will today. I posted that mess a month or so into my alchemy research. The truth? I was lost trying to decipher the texts. It wasn't easy for a newcomer.

Please disregard that blog, and instead of looking only at the negative, please take a look at the positive and what I've contributed to this forum.

EDIT: It's deleted now.

[BeautifulEvil]

If I told you that, then I would be a traitor. My friend might be a traitor, but I sir, am not a traitor.

For any more personal quabbles, please PM me. Let's not continue this in the thread.

[BeautifulEvil]

Sigh, if that's what you think, then so be it. I don't have the time to fight with you and NDC's countless immortal warriors. I was kicked out once, almost a year ago, and I haven't joined since. There are many who discuss these things outside of his group, and I know a few people who have said things that should've been "secret."

There's a whole secret group dedicated to Sergio's work. I might post it here if you continue. Just to stir the fire! Either way, all of you are so filled with light, it's freaking unbelievable. Can't stand the brightness! It's so blinding!!

Please refrain from this, and if it continues, I'm afraid we will have no choice but to remove you from the board. I'm all for freedom of information, but this is harassment.

I've deleted the blog, what more do you want me to do? You can let NDC see this if you want. Heck, go post the link!

Let me be clear here for all those NDC warriors, this is from his page, this is "his" process. So there you are. You may view his page at www.alchemy-illuminated.com.

There will be no more mention of this after this post, and I am serious.

[phliosehea]

It's clear that your knowledge of alchemy is limited to charlatans...Hollandus is indeed the original, though not the only one, who wrote about this process...you should research more before you accuse.
This from Hollandus

[BeautifulEvil]

Right, well as long as you set the record straight that's all I'm concerned about. I see that it was you and I remember being the one who called you out. Sorry I had to do that. I didn't mean to get you kicked out of the forum but man you deserved it.

I understand, and I probably deserved it. However I did not think I was ripping anybody off though, and that's the truth. NDC even had the GW page on his site for sometime until he removed it (last I checked). I was trying to explain myself, but I was kicked out before I had the chance. I might stand a better chance at joining his group now, especially since my knowledge of alchemy has increased vehemently over the past months.

As far as Sergio's process, it was written in riddles and I'm pretty sure noone has the slightest idea how it's really done. Also that was stolen from NDC's forum too because Sergio sent it to him. However, if you know something about it and whoever is working it out wants to share, I would be honored. At any rate, I have my own methods for doing Alchemy and I am not that interested in deciphering Sergio's nonsense.

Ah, I remember reading the pdf files. They're posted on another group, but it's not yahoo, it's more of a traditional mailing list. I will talk to those guys and ask if it's fine to post the information here. They've worked on it some, but it's still pretty cryptic. Haven't made much headway with it either. Did you know Sergio signed up for an account here, a few months ago, but hasn't posted yet.

This I also discovered by myself and with a little help from my best friend. So you see, I am truely an asset to the forum and look at the success I've had with the Gold Acetate path as well. So what was it you said again about kicking me out when you're the one who was caught plagiarizing other people's work?

Sure, I do see you as an asset, and I see all members as an asset! I have no problems with you being here, a little criticism is fine, but sometimes it's best to just hold your tongue (fingers). How much can a guy be punished for doing something wrong? Would you hang me on a cross? Because that's what it seems like! In regards to kicking you out, this would've only been a choice if you had continued the argument. However, this is not an option since I believe we've come to a mutual understanding.

Hollandus is indeed the original, though not the only one, who wrote about this process...you should research more before you accuse.

Thank you kind sir, that is the exact text I was thinking about!

[phliosehea]

You owe nothing to anyone but GOD, he alone is the truth of art. No true artist betrays nature, NDC is a sophist and will always be a sophist.

[phliosehea]

No, I owe you nothing

[phliosehea]

Right, but you can't post information from NDC's group here because that's disrespectful. Are you still on NDC's forum?

Also, which manuscript are you referring to by Hollandus which supposedly refers to the Golden Water path?

This was your question in case you already forgot...please don't rearrange the facts when they're blatantly obvious.

[phliosehea]

The only thing I ruined is the excessive waste of time you would have brought...the maze is deep enough without the sophists to interfere.

[phliosehea]

Delphinum natare doces...I need nothing from you, perhaps you misunderstand...

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